Episode 71: A Writing Family

In this week's episode of The Watchung Booksellers Podcast, our neighbors Charles, Alice, and Hannah Liu—three published authors in the same family—discuss their love of education, writing, and our community.

Charles Liu is a professor of astrophysics at the City University of New York’s College of Staten Island and an associate with the Hayden Planetarium and Department of Astrophysics at the American Museum of Natural History. His research focuses on colliding galaxies, starburst galaxies, quasars, and the star formation history of the universe. In addition to his research publications, he writes books and online content for students and general audiences, The Cosmos Explained and The Handy Quantum Physics Answer Book. He hosts The LIUniverse with Dr. Charles Liu, a half-hour dose of cosmic conversation with scientists, educators and students about the cosmos, scientific frontiers, scifi, comics, and more. 

A.G.G. Liu is a writer and online educator based in New Jersey. Liu has reached millions of online learners on YouTube-both as the lead script writer for the AI and futurism channel Rational Animations, and through their own educational channel, Signore Galilei, which was started during college at Harvard. Liu co-authored the book 30-Second Space Travel with Dr. Charles Liu and Dr. Karen Masters and co-hosts the podcast The LIUniverse with Dr. Charles Liu. Residing in Bloomfield, New Jersey, Liu also enjoys singing, amateur radio, and strategy games.

Hannah Liu is an author, teacher, inclusion and belonging advocate, and founder of the Mixed Identity Project, which provides resources and mentorship to help adolescents embrace their multiracial heritage. Her experience growing up mixed race in Montclair helped shape her journey as a DEI leader, and her passion for working with students and helping them embrace their identities with pride and joy. Today, Hannah works as a DEI student programs leader at Pingree School in Massachusetts, and has previously taught at New Canaan Country School in New Canaan, Connecticut, as well as at Reach Prep and A Better Chance.

Resources:

SignoreGalilei Youtube

https://signoregalilei.com

The LIUniverse

MIXED Guided Journal

Toni Morrison ‘Write the book you would want to read quote from 1981 speech to Ohio Arts Council'

Rational Aminations

The Wild Gifting Projects

The Odyssey movie

PW 2026 Bookstore of the Year

2026 PW Publishing Stats

Books:
A full list of the books and authors mentioned in this episode is available here.

Register for Upcoming Events.

The Watchung Booksellers Podcast is produced by Kathryn Counsell and Marni Jessup and is recorded at Watchung Booksellers in Montclair, NJ. 

The show is edited by Kathryn Counsell.

Original music is composed and performed by Violet Mujica. Research and show notes by Caroline Shurtleff.

Thanks to all the staff at Watchung Booksellers and The Kids’ Room!

If you liked our episode please like, follow, and share!

Stay in touch!
Email: wbpodcast@watchungbooksellers.com
Social: @watchungbooksellers

Sign up for our newsletter to get the latest on our shows, events, and book recommendations!

Transcript

Kathryn: Hi, everybody.

Kathryn: Welcome to the Watchung Booksellers podcast, where our bookstore's vast community of book professionals talk about what they do for the love of books. Thank you for joining us. I'm Kathryn, here with my co-producer, Marni. Hello, Marni. Hi there. And this week we are wrapping up season four of the podcast with a wonderfully warm conversation from a family of writers who talk about their love of education, community, and writing.

Marni: That's right. The Liu family has been coming to Watchung Booksellers since we opened 35 years ago. Charles and Amy have three children, and two of them have written books. Charles has written many books, and today he talks with his daughters, Hannah and Alice, about their new releases. 

Kathryn: But before we get to the talk, let's take a second to chat about our summer reading. Uh, since we're not gonna be talking to you guys till the fall, um, we thought maybe we should share a few, , books on our list.

Kathryn: Marni, you go first. Do you wanna share? 

Marni: Uh, sure. Uh, I'm reading The Man by Laura Sims. It just came out on the 7th. . It's a thriller. I love Laura. She's a great friend of the store. She's a fantastic writer. And, uh, it's, it's really good. It's a real page-turner. And we are hosting her event tonight, so if you'd like to join us, um, you can go on our website and register.

Marni: Yeah. It's gonna be a great talk. 

Kathryn: That'll be great, yeah. 

Marni: And, um, I'm also actually gonna get a copy of Alice Lu's book. Um, the ... What is it, Kathryn? It's The Handy Answer Book? What, what is it? It's, like, the artificial- The 

Kathryn: Handy Artificial Intelligence Answer Book. 

Marni: Thank you. Thank you. Um, it is very well-researched and really does answer every question one might have, uh, whether you know AI really well or you know very little, like myself.

Marni: And, uh, I'm excited to read it. It ... And I love the format. So, uh, once, once I read that I'll, I'll ... I'm sure I'll have more to say, but ... Um, and then I have a, a advanced copy of Exit Party, uh, by Emily St. John Mandel. Um, I think that comes out in September. Yeah. Right? 

Kathryn: Yeah, September. 

Marni: And then I'm sure there's more, but that's probably enough for now.

Marni: How about you, Kathryn? What are you reading? 

Kathryn: Yeah. Oh, she's such a good writer. I can't wait to read that one too. Yeah. Now you've just added that to my list as well. Um, I'm also working on The Man. Um, that sounded funny. Just saying.

Kathryn: Uh, but yeah, so I'm reading that. Uh, it's great. I'm g- just getting ready to start, uh, The Birthing Tree by Amanda Peters. Um, Amanda Peters wrote, , The Berry Pickers a few years back, and, this is a novel about a woman who, uh, has to deal with her family's, um, buried truths.

Kathryn: Um, she's, uh, indigenous and she lives in a small, uh, Nova Scotia town. And, um, we're gonna have her this fall, and, um, her conversation's gonna be moderated by our own Alice Elliott Dark. Uh, I think that is, that's coming in September. 

Marni: Great. 

Kathryn: Um, so I'm reading that now. And I'm also gonna read, uh, John of John by Douglas Stuart.

Kathryn: Um, everybody has, under the sun, loves this book. Uh, it is about a, um, young homosexual man coming back home to his, um, small town. I f- I guess I have a small town theme, don't I? 

Marni: Yeah. 

Kathryn: Um- 

Marni: There you 

Kathryn: go ... a small town on the isles, uh, off of Scotland. And then finally, ... I'm switching gears.

Kathryn: I'm gonna do some science fiction 'cause I need to, you know, take my brain, I guess, away from a small town, and I'm gonna read Klara and the Sun. Um, that is by Kazuo Ishiguro, um, that, I don't know how many years, that came out maybe three or four years ago. 

Marni: Yeah. 

Kathryn: 2022. 

Marni: Yeah, some time. 

Kathryn: Uh, but they're making a film of it now, and I would really like to read it before the film comes out.

Marni: That's a good idea- Yeah ... to 

Kathryn: switch 

Marni: genres.

Marni: I like 

Kathryn: that. Yeah, yeah. But this is all very ambitious in the next two months, so we'll see. 

Marni: And , listeners, you should tell us what you're reading.

Marni: You can email us at, , wbpodcast@watchungbooksellers.com and let us know what, what's on your list for the summer. We'd love to hear from you. We also wanna share that our podcast book club will be hosting an in-store event to talk about this season's most talked about book, Yesteryear by Caro Claire Burke.

Marni: Uh, it seems like everyone has thoughts about this book. Um, and so we figured we should all get together and discuss it. So we'll have de- more details about that event on our website. 

Kathryn: Yeah, yeah. That's, uh, seems to be like the summer read. Um, I feel like everyone's talking about that one. 

Marni: Everybody I know- Yeah

Marni: has either has read it or is reading it. 

Kathryn: And either- 

Marni: Everybody ... 

Kathryn: loves it or hates it. 

Marni: Yeah. A lot of really strong 

Kathryn: opinion. Strong opinions. Yeah. Um, which make for a very good book club. Yeah, 

Marni: I think so too. 

Kathryn: Um, yeah, so we're, we're scheduling this for Thursday, August 6th.

Kathryn: And, , we'll have more details on the website. And, um, so register. It'll be free. Come hang out with us, and, , we'll talk about this divisive book. . So let's get on with the, uh, discussion, and we'll give a quick, introduction Charles Liu is a professor and chair of the Department of Physics and Astronomy at the City University of New York's College of Staten Island, and an associate astrophysicist with the American Museum of Natural History and Hayden Planetarium in New York. He hosts the podcast, The Lunaverse with Dr. Charles Liu, 

Kathryn: and has authored numerous books about the physical and astronomical sciences. Charles and his wife, Dr. Amy Rab Liu, live in Montclair and have three cosmically curious children.

Marni: And Hannah Liu is an author, teacher, DEI advocate, and founder of the Mixed Identity Initiative, which provides resources and mentorship to help adolescents embrace their multifaceted heritages. Her experience growing up mixed race in Montclair helped shape her journey as a DEI leader and her passion for working with students and helping them to come into their identities with pride and joy.

Marni: Today, Hannah works as a DEI specialist at the Pinery School in Massachusetts, and has previously taught at New Canaan Country School in New Canaan, Connecticut, as well as at Reach Prep and A Better Chance

Kathryn: Alice Lu is a writer and online educator based in New Jersey. Lu has reached millions of online learners on YouTube, both as the lead script writer for the AI and futurism channel, Rational Animations, and through their own educational channel, Signore Galilei, which was started during college at Harvard.

Kathryn: Lu co-authored the book "30-Second Space Travel" with Dr. Charles Liu and Dr. Karen Masters, and co-hosts the podcast, "The Luniverse" with Dr. Charles Liu. Her most recent book, "The Handy Artificial Intelligence Answer Book," is available now

Kathryn: residing in Bloomfield, New Jersey, Lou also enjoys singing, amateur radio, and strategy games

Marni: Enjoy the conversation, and we'll be back after to fill you in on what's coming up in the store.

Charles: One. Hello, everybody. I'm Charles Liu, and a longtime Montclair resident, and it is my wonderful pleasure to be on here on this podcast for Watchung Booksellers again. Uh, thank you, Kathryn, and to everybody at Watchung Booksellers for having us have this conversation. And today- Yay. Yay, you're right. And I am just delighted to first tell everybody who hasn't heard yet, uh, that Watchung Booksellers has been named by Publishers Weekly as a 2026 Bookstore of the Year.

Charles: Good. Oh, yeah. Rock and roll. Hello. Well deserved. We love that. Well deserved. And , uh, I can't think of a better conversation topic than what we're having today, because it's about families writing books and interacting with bookstores. I have had the great pleasure of writing a few books in my time, and now my daughters have written books too, and we're all coming out with a book this year.

Charles: And so it is my pleasure to introduce you all to daughter number one, Hannah Liu. Hello. I'm 

Hannah: number one. 

Charles: Well, you're older. You're older. What else can I say? You're just always older. I'm just older. Hello. Hello. I'm always number one. Yes. Yes. And then daughter number two, Alice Liu, over here. Hello. Hey. Um, it is such a pleasure to be able to be doing this here, but also just to be doing it with you guys.

Charles: Um, it is such a fun thing to be able to share something with your kids, and sharing book writing is something really special. I know not everybody gets a chance to do that. So today, I'd just like to talk with you about that, and then you guys talk about your books a little bit, and talk about the whole process of writing, and the kinds of things that have led you to where we are today.

Charles: Sound good? 

Hannah: Cool. 

Charles: Yeah, of 

Alice: course. 

Charles: All right. Let's begin with, uh, asking each of you to give a one-minute or so summary of the book that you have published or are going to publish this year. All right? Uh, let's start with Hannah. Hannah Liu, tell us about your book, the title, the motivation, the stuff. One minute, go.

Hannah: All right. Uh, you'll have to time me. So the book is called MIXED, all caps. Mm-hmm. Uh, and it is a self-guided journal for, uh, mixed race and multiracial adolescents, uh, young people, you know, whatever you wanna call that- Mm-hmm ... 11 to 21, whatever. Mm-hmm. 

Charles: All right. 

Hannah: Um, and there's journaling prompts and prompts for you to think about, uh, your own identity if you are mixed or multiracial, mixed in with a bunch of stories from my life, and then also from the lives of my students and my friends who are also mixed and multiracial.

Hannah: Mm-hmm. And yeah, hopefully it's designed for people to be able to find empowerment and also learn a little bit. And, uh, it's also really great for educators and caregivers of these awesome multiracial young people, uh, if you wanna learn a little bit about that life experience. 

Charles: Wow. Very cool. Thank you, Hannah.

Charles: That is neat, and I think it's pretty unique. I have never heard- Yeah ... of anybody writing a book like this. That's why 

Hannah: I wrote it. 

Charles: Yeah. 

Hannah: That's why I wrote it. That's, it's 

Alice: important. 

Hannah: I think, I think, I think about the To- Toni Morrison quote a lot. Mm-hmm. I, I'm not gonna get it right, but she's basically like, "You gotta write the book that you wanna read."

Alice: Hmm. Hmm. 

Hannah: Yeah. And, um, this actually started as a project when I was in graduate school. It was a final project for a class that I was in- Uh-huh ... of like create something for your community, and I was like, "Okay, who's my community?" It's like, "The pandemic, I'm locked inside. I don't-" "What is that?" Mm-hmm. Uh, and so I started to write this book, which I finally have now finished, and it's coming out later this year.

Alice: Yay. 

Hannah: Uh, yay. And, uh, yeah, part of the reason I did is 'cause there, I couldn't find one that I wanted to read, but it's kinda like the book that I wish that I'd had. 

Charles: Wow. I love that. Thank you, Hannah. Alice, your turn. 

Alice: Yeah, all right. So my book actually exists. It's out. You can get it here at Watchung Booksellers.

Alice: Woo-hoo. Yay. Um, it is The Handy Artificial Intelligence Answer Book. 

Charles: Ooh. 

Alice: So it's part of- Timely ... this Handy Answer Book series, which you may be familiar from, uh, my father over here. Um, but it is a series of books all giving questions and answers about lots and lots of topics. Ours is about AI, so me and my co-author, D- Dr.

Alice: Aishwarya Pawar, that is what I'm saying, ours. Um, it's a lot of questions and answers about the topic of artificial intelligence, its role in the world, sort of its history, how it gets made, the kinds of things we do with it, what it might cause in the future. 

Charles: Hmm. 

Alice: And so it's not meant to be, you know, a pro-AI or anti-AI piece.

Alice: It's about getting the whole picture of what's going on with this really important and impactful technology today. 

Charles: That's very cool. Would you say that, uh, this book was also, like Hannah's book, the book that you kind of wished someone else had written already? 

Alice: I, like... This is a book that needs to exist.

Alice: Mm. I, I will say that there, there's a lot of books about AI in general. Um, I like this one because- When I was making it, I was really had it in mind for a very general audience. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, I want people who are not mathematicians or computer science experts the way my co-author might be to actually be able to understand and be able to interface with this technology because it's, it's affecting everyone's lives.

Charles: Mm. 

Alice: And I think a lot of the books that already exist about AI are really geared toward people who either are experts , or are, like, about to be experts, like, they're college textbooks and things like that. Mm. So I think this is, this is really much more accessible. 

Charles: Wonderful. Oh, that's awesome. 

Hannah: I agree. I read it this week, and it is very accessible.

Hannah: Good 

Charles: job. Terrific. Yeah. 

Alice: It just, it just came out in the past few days, 

Charles: so. Okay. Oh, that's wonderful. Um, I suppose I should give a 60-second, uh- Yeah, what's up with you? Yeah. Yeah, what's your- The book that I have put... Now, this is my 12th book, so, um- Okay, brag ... depending on how you count. Sorry. Depending on how you count.

Charles: So, so it's a little bit- ... you know, different dynamic. Um, I know this is Hannah's first book, and it is Alice's second book. That's 

Alice: true. Um- And the last one was one, also one of your books. That was this, um- 

Charles: That's right. One of, one of... Yes. Yeah. That was a lot of fun. That was 30-Second Space Travel that the two of us did with Karen Masters.

Charles: And with Dr. Karen Masters. Yeah. Yes, our, our good friend at Haverford College. Uh, but this book is indeed one of those books that I think needed to be written, and, uh, it is titled Natural Science, with super in parentheses. Uh, the idea is that natural science is super, and it's awesome, and a lot of people that I've communicated with over the years are really curious about, like, aliens and, uh, Bigfoot and, uh, all kinds of neat things, vampires, zombies, and artificial intelligence.

Charles: Mm-hmm. Things that are just, like, on the fringes of what we would consider as well-known, understood science. 

Alice: Mm-hmm. 

Charles: And I felt it was really important for everyone to understand that as a scientist and as someone who loves fiction and stories and games and things like that, that non-science and science are really two peas in the same pod.

Charles: We are not a anti-science if we were non-science. What we are anti is pseudoscience- Mm ... the stuff that is officially and formally trying to trick you and using very often sort of the cloak of scientific jargon or terminology in order to make you think that what they're saying is more legitimate or actual.

Charles: So this book is about- non-science stuff and the science behind it, and the real stuff we should get excited about, and a statement saying, "Don't be fooled or frightened by pseudoscience. Just know the science, have a great time with it, enjoy it- Mm-hmm ... and revel in both the stuff that is scientific, like the things that I do in my regular life, and that is non-scientific, which I love and enjoy in my regular life and like to share with people."

Charles: Amazing. Yeah. Amazing. I really enjoy it. It, it was just a fun book, and after writing 11 books, uh, all of which were primarily educational in nature, all of which were nonfiction like this one is, but really more about saying what is the science, I wanted to tell people, "You know what? The non-science is cool, too.

Charles: Let's take a look at it in that way." 

Hannah: That's kind of fun. Yeah. You could have a little fun with it. 

Alice: Yeah, yeah. And take your, take your science writing perspective there. 

Charles: Right. I had a great time- Mm-hmm ... with it, and it was really enjoyable to be able to write. And, uh, I want to ask you guys, I mean, I know how I come to books and how I want to communicate with them.

Charles: Uh, I insist that all my books have lots of pictures. That they have... Uh, y- you guys know I'm a comics fan, right? Yeah. That's true. I've been a comics fan since I was a kid. Yeah. Um, and I also- There's a bunch of 

Alice: boxes of them in the attic. 

Charles: Maybe too many boxes, I don't know. Although, you guys recently read some graphic novel or two that I had from long, long, long time 

Hannah: ago.

Hannah: Yeah. I'm getting into, uh, Starstruck. 

Charles: Yeah. 

Hannah: Uh- Mm-hmm ... but... And I was mentioning it to you, and then you were like, "Oh, I have that." 

Charles: Which is true. Yeah. And so, um, the whole concept of a book for me is telling a story, but not just with words. I wouldn't consider a book fully communicative if it didn't have illustrations, if it didn't have captions, insets, uh, maybe unusual design, things like that.

Charles: Mm-hmm. Um, so I think in, in that sense, I might be a little bit, um, weaker- ... uh, on the words only side, text only side of things than many other authors, uh, who, like, can tell a narrative, like a full-length novel from beginning to end using only language, which I have incredible respect for. But that's not me.

Charles: Um, how about you guys? Do you feel like you used these other techniques or formatting or other styles beyond just a straight narrative beginning to end to communicate what you wanted in your books? 

Hannah: Yeah. So, um- I definitely would say that I did. I, my book isn't heavily illustrated, but, um, I wanted to use illustrations really strategically in the book.

Hannah: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So, uh, 'cause it is for young people and, um, many of us, not just young people these days, are not here to read a 200-page wall of text. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I wanted to break it up a little bit, but I also wanted to be really intentional with the pictures that I included. Oh. Um, so they are actually hand-illustrated images- Nice

Hannah: that are, um, done by a former student of mine- 

Alice: Oh, 

Hannah: awesome ... uh, who is an artist who's going to school for art. Um- And they, Jay Medina, I wanna shout them out, they're really cool. Woo-hoo. Uh, yeah, and they themself are a young person of color. Mm. And, um, I was like, "I really want my illustrations to, to show the type of person that I'm talking about in my book."

Hannah: Mm. Um, and so they represent young people who are multiracial, who have many different identities. Mm, mm. Um, and so there's, like, 30 plus in the, in the book, all hand-drawn by Jay. Oh, wow. Um, and they, they really, I think, um, hopefully will allow the reader to see themself in the book, which was my goal. 

Charles: Yay.

Hannah: Yeah. Oh, that's- And I 

Charles: hope, yeah ... marvelous. That, and that's a great perspective to bring in an illustrator whom you know- Mm-hmm ... through your teaching, which 

Hannah: is kind of cool. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was awesome. Um, actually the, the day before they graduated... I teach high school- 

Alice: Mm-hmm ... 

Hannah: for context. Mm. And the day before they graduated, I was like, "Hey, can I send you, like, a email after you graduate, and then we can connect, and maybe I can, like, pay you, and you can get some experience?"

Hannah: Um, so it was, uh, really also just fun for me as an educator to be able to, like, give this person their first, like, big commission. Yeah. And they wrote an artist statement for my book. Woo-hoo. So when you can read that, you can read what they had to say. 

Charles: All right. That's awesome. Mm-hmm. Jay in their own voice.

Charles: Mm-hmm. I love that. Alice, how about you? 

Alice: Yeah. So I didn't have as much direct control over the illustrations. Mm. Um, I... Thankfully there was people who made these illustrations and have added them in, and they had a... I love the cover art with, like, the robots on there with the little eyes glowing and so forth.

Alice: Mm. It's very fun. Um, it's... I'm, I'm enjoying it. Um, I didn't write it with the illustrations specifically in mind. Um, but the thing that we did do, uh, intentionally was this question and answer format. 

Charles: Mm-hmm. 

Alice: Um, so you know, when I... The first early drafts of this book were not in the question and answer format.

Alice: Yes. They were more like short essay bits about each one. Uh-huh. But, but one of the big things when we brought, um, my coauthor Dr. Pawar on, uh, was we converted it into this handy answer book format that, that sort of fits this line. Mm. And I think it was a good decision, um, because it's... The question and answer format really is, is interesting in that you can see, like, if I have a specific thing I want to know, it's very obvious where that is in the book.

Alice: Mm. But you can also look next to that. You can also say, "Well, what are the questions in the adjacent fields?" Mm-hmm. Like, literally adjacent in the book, but also adjacent in, like, conceptual space. Ah. Um, and we try to organize it, you know, by fields, that you can see what adjacent questions are, are literally adjacent questions.

Alice: Um, and so yeah, I think by, by doing that, I think it, it adds to that accessibility of it all. Ah. You know, that, that you can just pick this up and be like, "I have one question. I'm gonna just answer this one-" "... and then maybe I'll get some more later." 

Hannah: Mm. Or maybe you'll see the one next to it and be like, "Oh, I actually had that question.

Hannah: I didn't even know it." 

Charles: Exactly. Right. Yeah. So the concept of discovery- It sounds to me, and I know from my own experience, that your educational experiences- Mm-hmm ... both being educated and being educators- 

Alice: Yes

Charles: uh, has affected greatly how you have approached this book. Um, thinking about both your audience and the way that you have turned into a communicator through- Yeah ... your books. Um, could you give us a rundown each of your educational experiences, like school, et cetera, as well as where you've taught and how those things kind of have affected the way that you communicate?

Charles: Let's start with you, Alice. 

Hannah: Okay, then you have to do it, too. 

Alice: Yeah, you have to do it also. 

Charles: Uh, okay, okay. Okay. But Alice, let's start. 

Alice: All right, I'll start with me. So I, I grew up here in Montclair. Um, I went to Edgemont, Renaissance, uh, Montclair High School. Me too. 

Hannah: Woo. Woo. 

Alice: Yeah. Go with, go with all those things.

Alice: Shout 

Hannah: out Renaissance. 

Alice: Renaissance. RIP. RIP. Uh, yes, so then I, I got my, uh, undergraduate degree from Harvard in math. Mm-hmm. Um, I wrote my thesis on a set of shapes called polytopes and up to four dimensions. Whoa. And but, like, that sounds like a really technical topic, but I specifically knew I wanted to go into science communication by the time I was graduating.

Charles: Oh. 

Alice: And so my thesis, I spent specifically a lot of time making this topic accessible to a non-expert. 

Charles: Wow. 

Alice: And so since then, I, I, you know, have spent some time in the formal classroom. You know, I've taught at, um, Newark Academy- 

Charles: Mm-hmm ... 

Alice: uh, for a semester. I also have taught summer programs at Montclair State University for Montclair High School students.

Alice: Mm-hmm. Uh, like the, the Western Science Scholar Program here in Montclair. Ah. 

Charles: And the Newark Academy you're referring to is in New Jersey, right? 

Alice: Yes, Newark Academy in Livingston, New Jersey. Okay. Okay. It used to be in Newark years ago. 

Charles: Oh, okay. 

Alice: Yeah. It, it, it's a fun story. But yeah, so I... But my, most of my education, uh, experience as an educator has been online.

Charles: Oh. 

Alice: Um, so I run my own YouTube channel called Signora Galilei. I work, um, with, with you on the Lunaverse. Yes. And of course Hannah's been on the Lunaverse, uh- 

Hannah: They keep putting me on theirs ... many times. 

Alice: Yes. Yeah. We- It, it's awesome. Um, and, and then I also work, uh, full-time for a channel called Rational Animations.

Alice: Hmm. And then I also, like, have various other things. I have a blog associated with my YouTube channel and so forth. Mm-hmm. Um, lots of that stuff is about reaching a mass audience, and I think, uh, it's sort of similar to the way books can. Ah. You can, you can get lots of people, and you don't know exactly who your audience is gonna be.

Charles: Ah, yes. 

Alice: So as you're going forward, um, you need to write things in a way where, like, not only it makes sense to you and people who are just like you- Mm-hmm ... but you have to make sense to anyone who might be coming across your work. 

Charles: Wow, 

Alice: okay. And that's, that's a, that takes a skill. Yeah. And I think that is maybe the biggest impact on my books.

Alice: It's been able to have that skill and develop it over so many years- Right ... um, iterating on it through these online sources. 

Charles: What an interesting educational perspective. I love that. Um, Hannah, talk, talk to us about your experiences. Uh, 

Hannah: yeah, I mean, I think I'll go, I'll go backwards, I guess, uh, because I just wanna build on what you're saying- Mm-hmm

Hannah: which is, um- I also, uh, have sort of developed my writing by talking to people who I have to explain things to. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, so I, I also did the same, uh, Montclair, uh, educational track as you. Public schools. Woo. Edgemont 

Alice: Elementary- That's good

Alice: Renaissance 

Hannah: Middle School- Once again, shout out Renaissance. ... and Montclair High School. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Um, and then I went to Brown for undergrad. Mm-hmm. And I studied a lot of different humanities stuff. Mm-hmm. Um, so classics primarily, which I started learning at Renaissance, Latin with Mr.

Hannah: P- Mr. P. Someday it'll be reborn. And someday it'll be re- Mr. Prisont ... it'll have a renaissance. A renaissance, as you, if you will. Yeah. Uh, from Latin originally. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and religious studies. Mm. Um, and then I went on to teach Latin- Uh-huh ... uh, to middle schoolers, which you can imagine is crazy. 

Alice: Yes. 

Hannah: I loved it.

Hannah: But good, I mean- I loved it so much- Oh ... and I would do it again in a heartbeat. That's wonderful. Um, but it is hard and crazy to teach, uh, an 11-year-old what a passive periphrastic is. Mm. So. Yeah. That's legit. Um, so I got really good at breaking stuff down, uh, into component pieces- Uh-huh ... um, and into sort of, like, metaphor and language that people can really relate to.

Hannah: Um, I now teach, uh, high school. I teach mostly history and health. Hmm. Um- 

Charles: You went straight from Connecticut right to teaching where you are now? 

Hannah: So great point. I should say New Canaan Country School in Connecticut is where- Mm ... I started. Um, I ended up taking a year off in between going to high school to go to graduate school.

Hannah: I got my master's degree in education from Harvard. Uh-huh. And then now I teach at Pingry School in Massachusetts. Oh, I 

Charles: see. 

Hannah: Um, and I do equity and belonging stuff there as well. 

Charles: Wonderful. Very cool. 

Hannah: Um, yeah, so and, and a lot of the stuff that I write, um, even from when I was in high school- Mm ... at, at Montclair High, like, was, I think, a little bit more colloquial.

Hannah: I try to be clear. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, but this has just, has influenced how I write, and it's also influenced who I write for. 

Charles: Very cool. Mm-hmm. Um, it is interesting to me that- Alice, you did formal education, but then decided to steer consciously away from formal education- Mm-hmm ... and now you're doing informal education.

Charles: All right, Hannah, you consciously decide to go fully into- Yeah, I just kept going ... formal education- Yeah. ... as, as a, as a thing. I, of course, have done both. 

Hannah: Mm-hmm. 

Charles: Uh, my primary work, as you know, is as a professor of astronomy, and so at a university setting, I teach real classes, and I conduct my research in, you know, colliding galaxies and super massive black hole environments and the star formation history of the universe and all that.

Charles: It's pretty 

Alice: epic stuff. 

Charles: Well, it sounds- It's pretty cool. Well, it sounds impressive, right? But actually, it's just another inquiry into the world and the universe, just the way that studying, for example, four-dimensional polytopes might be in math, or say- That 

Alice: also sounds 

Charles: awesome. Yeah. Right. It does. And studying Latin- Ooh

Charles: or, you know, literature- Yeah ... you know, Renaissance, that's also awesome, too, and, and sort of the human interaction, uh, between people of different kinds and different thought processes and different times and periods in history. So I have been very fortunate, uh, as an academic, to be able to do both things at once, uh, being able to both be in the classroom and do informal education.

Charles: You two guys know that I was at the American Museum of Natural History full time for five years- Mm-hmm. Heck yeah ... uh, after, yeah, after my time in graduate school and my postdoctoral work. Night at the Museum in real 

Hannah: life. 

Charles: Right. It was very cool, and you guys- ... remember going when it was young, right? Yeah, it was awesome.

Charles: And we were putting the Rose Center- Yeah ... for Earth and Space together. And so I was truly full-time informal education person while I was doing my research until I became a professor, and then now became a full-time formal educator while doing my research. And then in the meantime, on the side, writing books as, um, just for fun-

Charles: pretty much. Uh, and so, uh, I have been influenced by both worlds that you guys selected primarily to be your primary world. What do you think, say, years from now, when you're old and crusty like me- ... uh, do you think switching back would be something you'd be interested in doing, or switching out, or trying some different angle?

Charles: Or are you guys pretty comfortable with sort of just expanding your worlds the way they are now? Mm. Hannah? 

Hannah: Uh, yeah. I mean, one of the things when I was writing Mixed- Mm-hmm ... that really appealed to me is kind of creating, um, informal- Slash maybe a little formal, but informal but guided- Mm-hmm ... spaces for young people to explore these ideas.

Hannah: That's 

Charles: a great word, guided spaces. 

Hannah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's the whole point of the book, right? Mm-hmm. It's a, it's a guide. Um, but obviously every person is a unique individual and having their own experiences. So, um, I would love to do that someday, maybe in a bookstore such as this where we are recording.

Hannah: You could get a bunch of kids together with some comfy chairs. 

Charles: Hey, hey, hey. 

Hannah: Talk about being mixed. It could be pretty cool. I love that. Yeah. 

Charles: Mm. 

Hannah: I don't know, one day. 

Charles: Okay. Yeah. Sounds cool. Alice, what do you think? 

Alice: Yeah. So I think that there's, there's a lot of, of good back and forth you can do between the two.

Charles: Mm-hmm. 

Alice: You know, I am still doing the summer programs, teaching sort of in a classroom 

Charles: there. So it's- Oh, this is the Weston Scholars Program- 

Alice: Weston Program, yeah ... 

Charles: at Montclair State University? 

Alice: Yeah. Yeah. It's just a few weeks a year, so it's not, it's not the whole, the whole time there. 

Charles: And, and during those few weeks, what are you teaching?

Alice: Uh, calculus and also group theory. 

Charles: Ah. 

Hannah: So- I don't know, that sounds pretty formal. 

Charles: So straight up math, formal- Yeah, it is ... real good stuff. It is. So, so you- ... you still have one toe- I, it- ... firmly in the waters- Just a 

Alice: little toe ... of formal land. Just a little toe. But yeah. No, it's, I found this great, um, resource, and I don't know the name of it, um, off the top of my head, but I have it downloaded, where it's a, a group theory, which is usually a college-level topic- Mm-hmm

Alice: and it's presented in a way that's accessible to high school students. 

Charles: Wow. 

Alice: Talking about, um, the symmetries of shapes and of, you know, trying to do math with weekdays and things like that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. The kinds of things that operate on this, this m- math realm that seems to be complex, and, you know, again, taking it down.

Alice: Right. Um, not dumbing it down exactly, but pre- presenting it in a way that's accessible to people. 

Hannah: Mm-hmm. 

Charles: Yeah. Mm-hmm. The accessibility is key, isn't it? Mm-hmm. Like you said, uh, your whole book is designed to make artificial intelligence accessible to- Exactly ... non-specialists, not dumbing it down to make it meaningless, but just removing barriers for- Exactly

Charles: people who are not- Yeah ... specialists to understand what's going on. 

Hannah: Right. 

Alice: Right. Yeah, it's big. And so if, if, if it, in the future the opportunity comes to arise and I'm like- Trying to do that in a classroom again, I would, would take the opportunity. Um- Okay ... but right now I'm quite happy doing what I am doing.

Alice: Yeah. And they're actually somehow paying me money for it. 

Charles: Huge. Well, you know what? I, I think that's a perfect segue into a question that I've had for quite some time, and that is , the economics- Mm-hmm ... of writing stuff these days. Now- Mm ... when I was your age, there was no such thing as internet making money.

Charles: Yeah. Okay? In fact, there was even no such thing as social media at all. Mm-hmm. Right? Facebook had not yet made the scene, and that, even that's old now, replaced by newer platforms like TikTok and Instagram 

Alice: and- I mean, people do still use Facebook. Oh, absolutely. 

Charles: It's not 

Alice: like MySpace and Friendster, but...

Charles: Yes. But yes, but things have moved on, right? Yeah. Yeah. And, and you keep every few years, uh, maybe once or twice a decade, we're finding new platforms, new things. Mm-hmm. And associated with each of those is new economy. Uh, I, uh, have no idea that people actually make money and, and the industry of social media education runs into the billions of dollars a year.

Alice: Oh, 

Charles: yeah. Right? And, and that's amazing to me. So, uh, Alice, uh, I, I don't want to, you know, give away too much information- ... because I know economics- Yeah ... can be a little bit sensitive. But you are making a full-on, high-quality living- ... doing social media education. 

Alice: I have my own apartment and everything. 

Charles: You're right.

Charles: How, how do you think that is, uh, changing the way that everybody is writing and doing and, and things like that going forward? 

Alice: It's huge. So I think, like- More peo- people are reading as much as they ever were. 

Charles: Mm. 

Alice: You know? But, but- Mm-hmm ... a lot of that has shifted from what we think of as traditional books to becoming lots of other sorts of things.

Alice: And so I, I, I honestly really like when people read books. I'm just gonna say as, as an author of books- ... you know, sitting in a bookstore. Um, but also there's all these other opportunities for people to learn, um, in these other platforms. Mm-hmm. So YouTube is considerably, among the space, is sort of the best one in terms of sharing with its creators.

Charles: Oh, 

Alice: okay. Um, they'll actually give you a 55% to 45%, depending on what you're doing, of the ad revenue you get- 

Charles: Oh, 

Alice: that's really very nice ... on their videos actually goes right to you. 

Charles: Holy moly. Wow, that's better than 

Alice: I thought. Yeah. It's, it's, it's good. Um, it's, it's could be different. Um, the way they calculate that and the numbers they use- Mm-hmm

Alice: are a little fudged sometimes, but- Of 

Charles: course ... 

Alice: but it is considered the best. Facebook is not as good. Um, you know, X and, and TikTok are definitely not as good. 

Charles: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Alice: Um, but, you know, people are also able to do things in, in become these little independent entrepreneurs of information- Ah ... in all these sorts of places.

Alice: And you got, you know, YouTube, you got Substack's another one. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, you know, um, another big thing that's important there is, philanthropy and, and charitable donations. Oh. Mm-hmm. So, like, my... The channel I work for, Rational Animations, relies a lot on these donations. I know, um, John and Hank Green, they've been in the space for a while.

Alice: Yes. They're- The 

Charles: Vlogbrothers, 

Alice: right? The Vlogbrothers, yeah. They run things like Crash Course and SciShow. Mm-hmm. Um, they recently transitioned their company to being a nonprofit- Oh. Mm ... so they can get tax-deductible donations and such. 

Charles: Oh, wow. 

Alice: Mm. So, yeah. That's 

Charles: important. 

Hannah: I- Yeah ... I will add for philanthropy from my end, too, like, writing a book can be expensive.

Hannah: Mm. It takes up time for sure. It takes a lot of time, right? And you wanna get paid for your time if you can, but also it's time you're not doing other stuff. Mm. Mm-hmm. Um, potentially working with marketing people for social media, which is something that I'm starting to get into now. It's, like- Wow

Hannah: terrifying. Yeah. 

Charles: Wow. It's a lot. 

Hannah: Um, and I was able to do this through grant money as well. Really? Mm-hmm. Interesting. From the Wild Gifting Project. Um- The Wild 

Charles: Gifting Project. 

Hannah: Yeah, they're really cool actually. I think they, I think they're out of money for this year because they are so cool. 

Charles: Hooray 

Hannah: for the Wild Gifting Project.

Hannah: Um, yeah, yeah. Shout, 

Charles: shout-out to your funders. 

Hannah: Yeah. That's amazing. That you should look into them if you're looking for a cool grant to do something unique. Oh. Um, but yeah, d- like, totally thanks to the world of philanthropy that I'm able to be here. 

Alice: Yeah. Ah. You know, it... I'm glad that people recognize the value of educational content.

Hannah: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, 

Alice: you know, content is, is this word that gets thrown around. It's like, oh, just stuff that you make. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. But it means someone's pouring their effort into this. 

Hannah: Yeah. 

Alice: Yeah. 

Charles: It's true. So in the same way that, uh, centuries ago, a wealthy patron would support Beethoven's compositions- Yeah.

Charles: uh, or something like that- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... right? Now- Now 

Hannah: you can be a patron on Patreon Or Virgil 

Charles: to write the Aeneid. Yeah. You could be a Patreon. I think that's cool. Yeah, the ancient, um- Writers of Latin- Oh, yeah ... also needed people to fund them? 

Hannah: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that what happened? Oh, yeah. Like, Virgil wrote a bunch of stuff to this guy Maecenas, and, like, maybe they were friends, but he was definitely also his patron.

Hannah: Wow. Nice. And the Emperor Augustus was, and all 

Charles: that stuff. And, and so Virgil, uh, as many of our listeners know, wrote the Aeneid. 

Hannah: He did. 

Charles: Uh, and this is huge and gigantic, and he couldn't have done it without support from somebody. 

Hannah: Yeah. Maybe one of the best, uh, uh, written works of all time, if I do say so myself.

Charles: Really? 

Hannah: Well, in the original Latin. 

Charles: Oh, okay. Thanks a lot. Uh, uh, is there a way that you can, um, uh, decode some of that on behalf of us all so that we're- Yeah, yeah ... we're not barrier-ed against Latin? 

Hannah: I could do, I could do a little translation. Ooh. Um, pro- not off the top of my head. 

Charles: Okay. 

Hannah: But someday. But there's a really

Hannah: If you're looking for ... Okay, Nolan's movie, The Odyssey, blah, blah, blah, everyone's talking about it. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So fun fact. Mm. The Trojan Horse is, uh, not really in The Odyssey. Um- 

Charles: Uh-huh. 

Hannah: Yeah, it's just- Really? Yeah. It was, 

Charles: like, added in as a kind of a- 

Hannah: We know about the Trojan Horse from other stuff- Oh, okay

Hannah: um, actually, and it's part of the story of the Trojan War. Mm. But, um, there's a really great passage in the Aeneid where Virgil describes the one guy who didn't believe the Greeks. Right. And he's the one who says, "Never trust Greeks bearing gifts." Oh. Oh. Um, yeah, yeah. Uh-huh. So I highly recommend you look up that passage, even in English.

Hannah: It's awesome. 

Charles: Okay. All right. Will do that. Yeah, the economics of, of book writing really are an important thing for all of us to consider these days, so- For example, I, uh, have always gone with traditional publishers, right? Mm-hmm. In other words, they pay me- Mm-hmm ... to write a book. Mm-hmm. They take care of all the difficult things, and I don't ever try to make a lot of money off them 'cause I actually have a full-time, like, real job.

Charles: But it is important to me that I wouldn't be doing this if it were costing me significant money on my own. Mm-hmm. Right? And this is what I think all authors need to think about. But, uh, Publishers Weekly, in fact, did publish some statistics earlier this year. Uh, um, it is 2026, as everybody knows. Yeah. And Watchung Booksellers was announced-

Charles: uh, as the 2026 Bookstore of the Year by Publishers Weekly. Ooh. So definitely everyone keep that in mind. Yeah, we mentioned that at the beginning too. Once again- Yes. Uh, we, we can't say it- It's awesome ... often enough. Like, our, our own relationship with Watchung Booksellers as a family and as individuals has been so valuable.

Charles: Yeah, Bob's so nice. 

Hannah: Okay. Yeah. Not to derail, but I was thinking about this earlier. You're about to derail, aren't you? We- a little bit. 

Charles: Oh, it's okay. We'll get back to the other stuff later. Please derail. 

Hannah: When you were, when you were talking about the, the informal and the formal education thing- Yeah ... and how they're kind of- Yeah

Hannah: uh, both doing similar stuff but in different ways, I was thinking about when we were kids- Mm-hmm ... 'cause now sitting here with my family. 

Alice: Yeah. 

Hannah: Yeah. Uh, you would take us to bookstores- Yes ... all the time- Yes ... to just, like, run around and be around books. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, which was, like, huge, I think, for me 'cause I would always walk out with way way too many books.

Hannah: Same. Um, whether it was the library or the bookstore, whatever. Yeah. Um, Watchung Booksellers specifically. Um, recently you got me a birthday present from Watchung Booksellers, which was- I did ... uh, also a book. I 

Alice: pre-ordered some stuff here. Yeah. 

Hannah: Yeah. I mean, I pre-ordered all the Harry Potter books here. Like, this is like-

Hannah: the place, you know? But I think also it's like just reading, um- Mm-hmm ... and having access to books- doesn't feel like education all the time. No. It just feels like fun, um, 'cause you get to read these stories- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ... and stuff. But you actually learn how to write by reading. Wow. And you also learn- Yeah

Hannah: about the world around you, and, uh, yeah, such a gift. 

Charles: Don't, don't we all learn better when we're having fun? 

Hannah: I think so. 

Alice: I agree. Yeah. Um, at least for most things. Yeah. 

Hannah: Yeah. 

Alice: Um, I, I will also say, um, as someone who has, you know, published books now- Yes ... um, if you buy books in physical bookstores, it is better for us as authors.

Hannah: Yes, please do. Do that. Oh, really? And buy from independent bookstores. 

Charles: Yes. 

Alice: Yes, it's actually just, just, like, good in every way, 

Hannah: so. And also, when it's 107 degrees outside, they're air-conditioned. 

Alice: That too. 

Charles: Yeah, you guys have a- as I do- ... fond memories of bookstores, uh, in Montclair, and especially here. Yeah. Um, I will tell you that when you guys were very young, perhaps even before Alice was born, uh, we went to a bookstore, Hannah, you and me, called Ch- Cup and Chaucer.

Hannah: Oh. 

Charles: Uh, which was in Montclair on Bloomfield Avenue, and Cup and Chaucer was around for a very long time, but it closed shortly after we moved here- Mm ... to Montclair, you know, way late in the 20th century. But, um- Hey. In the late 20th century. Hey. But, but when... While it was still there, I went up there, and, uh, one of the things I was talking with that particular proprietor at that time was that, uh, she actually hosted Dungeons & Dragons- Aw

Charles: play in that bookstore. And now it's commonplace for places like bookstores and gaming stores to host this kind of thing. But at that time, it sounded brand-new to me. I was like, "What a concept." I mean, I love playing those kinds of strategy games- Yeah ... and fun games, and sort of- Another great way to 

Hannah: learn 

Charles: stuff

Charles: those kinds of, yeah, stochastic- While having fun. ... group storytelling experiences- Yeah ... as, as Alice, your mom, is saying, right? Yeah. What, what games like that really are like. Yeah, 

Hannah: that's a challenge for you, the listener, to find out what stochastic means. And I'll tell you that it comes from Greek. 

Charles: Really? 

Hannah: I think.

Charles: Most likely, yes. That 

Hannah: would make 

Charles: sense. Yeah. Like 

Alice: stoichiometry, too. 

Hannah: Yeah. 

Charles: Oh. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a chemistry term, everybody. Um- ... so, uh, the book that I bought from there, the last book I bought from Cup and Chaucer, was a little copy of The Velveteen Rabbit. Aw. 

Hannah: Aw. 

Charles: Uh, which I think we still have. Yeah, 

Hannah: I think we 

Charles: do, actually.

Charles: Uh, you've seen that recently, right? Yeah. Uh-huh. And so this is kind of the thing that, you know, bookstores provide, the experiences that we have. And here, um, you guys may remember when we stood in line out into Watchung Plaza for one of the newest midnight openings of, uh, the Harry Potter book at that time.

Charles: And you guys were wearing costumes and 

Hannah: things like that Oh, yeah 

Alice: Remember this? 

Hannah: Oh, yeah. I used to wear capes for every one of 

Alice: those It was very dramatic. It is, it was- 

Hannah: You dressed up as Ron Weasley when you dyed your hair orange one time 

Alice: I, I used, like, like, spray paint- Yeah, yeah ... basically. Like, like, soluble spray paint that would come off in the, in the shower.

Hannah: Yeah. 

Alice: Mm-hmm. Um, or with the bath, given my age. 

Hannah: Right. Yeah. Yeah. And, 

Charles: and, 

Alice: uh- Ah, I'm sad JK Rowling, but whatever. 

Hannah: I know. I, I think about that, those, the midnight openings a lot because those are the things that can still remind me of, like, what incredible, uh, community we were able to build with those books.

Hannah: Yes. Yes. And, like, what we learned about being anti-fascist and accepting of everybody. Coming 

Charles: out of closets. 

Hannah: Interestingly. 

Charles: Ah, yes, all of those things, right? And, and even I still remember myself, uh, when our, um, neighbor, uh, Stephen Colbert, uh, had his book out. Not our 

Hannah: neighbor. Okay, neighbor's a strong word.

Alice: Neighbor as in our- Our neighborhood fellow Montclair person ... someone else in Montclair. 

Charles: Yes. Not immediately on our block. Not, we do not live on the same block. Yeah, sorry, I, I didn't mean to intimate that. But, but, uh, our, our community friend, um, Stephen. And, and he had come out with his book, I Am America and So Are You, or So Can You. And So Can You. And So Can You. I got 

Hannah: that book here. 

Charles: Yes, we got that book here in Watchung Booksellers.

Charles: That was, that was here. Mm-hmm. And there was a big line there too. Mm-hmm. And everyone was there. It really was a community thing, right? And- It still is ... Stephen was there. I imagine it still is. Oh, he was, he was there, and, and just, uh, so smiling. Yeah, you don't, you don't live 

Alice: in town 

Hannah: anymore. Yeah, I don't live here anymore, but yeah.

Hannah: It 

Charles: definitely still is. Yeah. But, but everybody just smiling and, and laughing and having a good time being there. And then, of course, he came out with another book called I Am a Pole and So Can You. I have that 

Hannah: one, too. 

Charles: Yeah. That was fun. That was here at Watchung Booksellers as well. Um, bookstores are cool, right?

Charles: Yeah. Uh, okay. All right. We really have sidetracked, but that's okay. I told 

Hannah: you. 

Charles: I know. You, you waylaid the path, but- We 

Hannah: love, we love a thir- we love a third space.

Charles: Okay. So we were talking previously about the economics of writing books, right? And those kinds of things are actually important now, and I wanted you guys to, to talk a little bit about your thought process because Publishers Weekly, as I was starting to say- Published information earlier this year- Mm-hmm

Charles: that 4 million books with unique ISBN numbers- Whoa ... came out in 2025. Jeez. So last year. That's huge. 4 million volumes of all kinds, right? Mm-hmm. It's not just novels, but also, uh, everything from nonfiction- Is this around the world? ... workbooks, everything, just in the United States. Just in the US. 4 million. 4 million?

Charles: Yes. And of those 4 million, more than 3.5 million were self-published. 

Hannah: Ah. 

Charles: And o- only about half million, 600,000 went through a traditional publisher. Sure. Interesting. And, and so that just skews everything we think about- Right ... as what a, a novelist or what a book person is when you're doing a book writing phenomenon, right?

Charles: It used to be that there's this, um- I guess a stereotype where the, the writer is just slaving away- ... at their, uh, desk or whatever, and going on and, and writing books and not getting any recognition, and then they have the breakout book that goes and has a huge advance, and then they wind up making huge amounts of money- Mm-hmm

Charles: and then they live as an author for the rest of their life off their royalties or something like that, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. That clearly cannot happen when there are four million titles being published every year. Uh- Yeah. There are 300 and something million people in the United States- ... which means that, you know- 

Alice: One, one book for every 80 

Charles: people.

Charles: Yeah. And, and you're gonna have a really hard time making any kind of living with that kind of thing. So writing a book- Well- ... has, has it just become a, a, um, thing that other people can do if they already have some kind of, um, income, or is it changing sort of what it means to be an author these days? 

Hannah: I mean, I'll, I'll go first, although I do wanna hear what you have to say.

Hannah: Okay. 'Cause, uh, I consider myself a little bit of a non-traditional author. Uh-huh. Like, I have a day job. 

Charles: Yeah. 

Hannah: Um, like a pretty busy day job. I am a teacher. Yes. And I would, like, go home and write this over the summer or in the evenings, and it was just because I felt like I had an idea that I wanted to write down.

Hannah: Mm-hmm. And I was like, "What can I contribute to the world? It's this idea, and I don't think it's fair for me to just keep it to myself." 

Charles: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Hannah: Um, and, and I did go with, um, hybrid publisher, actually. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So I did not go a traditional publishing route. And, and you went 

Charles: through funding- 

Hannah: And I got a grant

Hannah: funding a 

Charles: non-traditional- Exactly ... source as 

Hannah: well. Yeah. Um, so I don't know. My, my take is, like, yeah, and I think that's a good thing. 

Charles: Mm-hmm. 

Hannah: Write down your stuff. 

Alice: Yeah. Write 

Charles: down your 

Alice: stuff. I was, I was at a talk, um, a few months ago, um, which where the, someone who works in the publishing in- industry was saying, like, "Oh yeah, there's X million books happening.

Alice: Most of those are gonna sell fewer than 100 copies." Wow. Mm-hmm. "Is that book worth publishing?" Yes. Mm-hmm. And he says, "Yes." Oh. Literally- Yes ... this is, every book that is published is worth publishing to someone, otherwise it would not- Aw ... have been published. 

Charles: Oh. 

Alice: Like, it's either- That's so nice ... it could be 'cause the author just, like, likes the idea of having a book- Mm-hmm

Alice: and wants to, or they want to share a specific story, and if 80 people read that story, that's awesome. 

Hannah: Mm-hmm. That's 80 people who benefited. 

Alice: Exactly. Right? Or, or it could be that, you know, even if it's like, like, someone was like, "Oh, yes, I made a video and I made a book version of my YouTube video about Minecraft," like- 

Hannah: People will read that book.

Alice: That's great. Yeah. Mm-hmm. You know? It, it exists for a reason. Mm-hmm. And so, so just, just because I wouldn't have thought of publishing any of these books- Mm ... doesn't mean they're not worth publishing. 

Charles: Mm-hmm. 

Alice: Mm-hmm. And so it, it is, it is perhaps financially harder to make a living if you are one of the few established writers this way.

Charles: Mm. 

Alice: Mm-hmm, 

Charles: mm-hmm. 

Alice: Um, maybe the number of people who can, who can make a full-time job out of writing books is- Mm-hmm ... has gone down. 

Charles: Uh-huh. 

Alice: Uh-huh. But if you, uh, you can prepare that trade-off with having more people have access to publishing at all- Ah ... that's still pretty good. 

Hannah: Yeah. 

Charles: Okay, okay. So the story is what matters, not the living, in, uh, in other words.

Charles: Um- Maybe occupation- I mean, 

Alice: occupational- Mm-hmm ... st- you know, consistency and having the ability to live on, on what you do is, is important. Mm-hmm. And we should make that happen to as many people as possible. Um- 

Hannah: But I think also, like- Yeah ... I don't think I would wanna be a full-time author. I really like my job.

Hannah: Oh, uh-huh. And I like working with kids on a daily basis. Mm-hmm. And, well, most of the days, not during the summer. 

Alice: Yeah. 

Hannah: I do like the break. Okay. But Okay, okay. And, and they also provide me a lot of inspiration for what I'm doing. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So, like, I don't necessarily wanna live that life, you know? 

Charles: Okay.

Alice: Yeah. 

Charles: So w- I guess we could say that the modern publishing industry or, or environment- Yeah ... because as we said, the industry is now highly, highly, uh, distributed. Mm-hmm. It is more conducive to people writing books because they have something to say- Yeah ... rather than writing books because they have to make a living.

Alice: Yeah, and obviously there are, you know, some kinds of unscrupulous people who like to charge you an arm and a leg to get your book published. 

Charles: Oh, yeah. Right, yeah. Very predatory. Do be careful. Yeah. Do be careful. 

Alice: So be careful out there. Okay. But, but there's also a lot of people who actually just want you to, to have book.

Charles: Yeah. That's super nice. That's really good- Yeah ... that's good to know. So we just have to be a little careful and make sure that we aren't, uh, victims of a- 

Hannah: Yeah ... 

Charles: a, uh, predatory- Just like in any 

Alice: other 

Hannah: industry Right, right ... uh, 

Charles: mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So, so be, be careful and be attentive to that. That makes sense. 

Hannah: But also write your book.

Charles: Right. Yeah. Write your book. So what do booksellers have to do in this environment? How do you... You can't obviously put four million books on a shelf. Right? There's only one store that I know of that has the word million in their name. Yeah. And they don't claim to have- They don't 

Hannah: have four, I 

Charles: don't think

Charles: four. Yeah. Um, uh, Books A Million aside, uh- ... what should a bookstore, in your opinion, like Watchung Booksellers, do to find the right balance or put- Mm-hmm ... the, the kinds of books up that are worthy of people walking into a bookstore and wanting to get something, not just online, but really- Yeah ... a discovery experience- Yeah

Charles: a, a community experience that we've all been talking about? 

Alice: Frankly, I feel like I, I trust the booksellers more- Yeah ... than I trust my own opinion on this. No 

Hannah: kidding. Well, and I would, I would add to that, and I would say, like, one of the cool things to do, and I have done this- Maybe at least three times already this year.

Hannah: Oh. Like to go to an independent bookstore- 

Alice: Okay ... 

Hannah: where the booksellers are like really passionate about it, or at the very least know a lot . Oh. I hope they're passionate, but it's not a requirement. Yeah. Uh, and to be like, "I liked these three books." Mm-hmm. "Recommend me another one." 

Charles: Oh. 

Hannah: Um, and they're really good at that, and I love that.

Hannah: Um- And 

Charles: do you like that better than like, say, an algorithm for an online thing will also say, uh, "Here are other books that other people-" 

Hannah: Yeah ... "

Charles: bought with it"? The human actually gives you better information than the algorithm? I've 

Hannah: done both. 

Charles: Uh-huh. 

Hannah: Both are useful. Um, but I have found when I'm really in a spot, when I'm maybe looking a book for, looking for a book for someone else- Mm-hmm

Hannah: or when I feel like I've read every single fantasy novel written for young adults that there is- ... 'cause I have done that ... then it's really helpful to talk to a real person who can, who can say, "Oh, yes, I've read this one, it's good," or, "This is really similar," or, "Have you looked at this one?" Okay. 

Alice: Mm-hmm. 

Hannah: Um, so that's great.

Hannah: And also, an independent bookstore will order you a book. Uh, so even if they don't have it on the shelf- 

Charles: That's 

Hannah: true ... I've gone in there and been like, "Do you have this book?" I ordered a book recently about marketing a book. And they did not have it on the shelf, and they got it in, like, three days.

Hannah: It was great Yeah, that's 

Alice: awesome. Wow, 

Charles: okay. 

Hannah: Yeah 

Alice: That's awesome. Yeah, a- and you know, we should, we should trust the people whose job it is to, to find books- Mm ... and, and, you know, have them all available to people, you know? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm Like, like this is, this is a whole nother topic which Watchung Booksellers has talked about in the past, you know, like people trying to censor books and things like that.

Alice: Yes. Yes But I don't know that we have time to go into it. But, uh, but you know, like, yeah- I love 

Hannah: the 

Alice: banned 

Hannah: bookshelf 

Charles: Yes The banned bookshelf was awesome, yeah Hooray for Watchung Booksellers' banned bookshelf. Yes. But your point is that the booksellers themselves, 

Alice: I think- They, they have, they have accumulated experience and, and you know, there are new trends that are coming in, and I want people to be aware of that.

Alice: You know, that's why I wrote a book about AI, right ? Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh Um, but, but, but having that experience is not something that can be easily replaced. 

Charles: Mm, marvelous. Okay, so we are running out of time. Uh, you guys know that I could chat with you guys forever 

Alice: and a day for this. Yeah, I mean, you have on previous occasions 

Charles: I have- We're big talkers

Charles: and will continue to do so, but, but let's wrap up with, uh, what the Watchung Booksellers podcast is traditionally known for, and that is at the very end, please give a minute each, roughly, about one thing you've read or are reading or something that maybe the listeners to this podcast would be interested in hearing about.

Charles: Uh, let's start with you, Alice. 

Alice: Okay. Um, I'm currently in the middle of reading a book on the Gemini program- Oh ... which is interestingly not pronounced Gemini. It is pronounced Gemini. 

Charles: Hmm. 

Alice: It's the one between, um, Mercury, the first American program to put astronauts in space, and Apollo, which is the one that landed on the moon And the- It's not Gemini?

Alice: I've been saying Gemini my whole life. Yeah, the, the constellation is Gemini Uh-huh ... it depends on what pronunciation you're using. But the NASA folks called it GeminI. Huh. 

Hannah: In Latin, it would be GeminI. 

Alice: Exactly, yeah. Mm. So it, it's an interesting combination of things. Um, but yeah, so this is by the same person who wrote the book that Apollo 13, the movie, is based on.

Alice: Oh. 

Hannah: Oh. Cool. I've seen that book. 

Alice: Yeah. Wow. I, I got it and, at a store in the city, and it's awesome. 

Hannah: Mm-hmm. Cool. 

Charles: Which city? 

Hannah: New York 

Charles: City. Oh, 

Hannah: okay. I guess- 

Charles: The city. All right, fair enough. Yeah. Um, okay. But you can get it here. Oh, we can get it here. That's right. 

Hannah: And you should. 

Charles: Hannah. 

Hannah: Uh, I'm breaking the rules.

Hannah: I'm doing two. Okay. So I finished a book recently- Mm-hmm ... speaking of YA fiction, um, which I still read, even though- Mm ... 'cause I think some of the best books are YA. Um, it's the, the fourth Hunger Games book. The, the one about, uh, President Snow. I just finished it. Ooh, is that a prequel? It's so good. Yeah, it's a prequel.

Hannah: Uh-huh. And it's like, it's one of those books where I think it's better if you've read the original series. Mm-hmm. And it, like, is such an interesting take on, like, character and humanity. Interesting. And, like, it's so good. It's, like, the kind of book where you have these really complicated characters, and adults don't always think that kids would like something like that.

Hannah: And so that stuff doesn't always get classified as YA. Uh- I see ... but it should be because absolutely young people are capable of understanding that kind of stuff. And, like, actually it's really, I think, good for them to- Mm-hmm ... encounter, uh- someone I might consider to be just true evil and sort of like what happens in their brain.

Hannah: It's very, it's so good 

Alice: Like even they don't think of himself as an evil person. 

Hannah: Right, right. You can kinda like gain empathy and stuff. 

Alice: Wow. 

Hannah: Um, the book I'm in the middle of right now is called Achilles in Vietnam. Oh. Which is a nonfiction book, um, written by a psychotherapist who- Wow ... worked a lot with Vietnam veterans- Whoa

Hannah: um, and is a classicist, and used the story of the Iliad and Achilles, um, in doing therapy- Oh ... group therapy essentially. And, um, he's the one that I believe, I hope I'm right, uh, who came up with the idea of the moral injury- Mm ... uh, where you've been asked or ordered in a military setting to do something that goes against your values- Wow

Hannah: um, and, and are psychologically injured as a result. Mm. And it's like a really interesting way to apply an ancient text, uh, which is written by Homer, um, about the Trojan War to a modern application and like really trying to help people. Um, it's really good. 

Charles: Wow. 

Hannah: Very highly recommend. 

Charles: I love that. And as for me, uh, you two know-

Charles: that I have not been able to get through an entire book since, uh, the last Harry Potter novel. So- Yeah, but you do, 

Alice: but you listen to a bunch of short story collections ... 

Charles: but what I will tell you is- Yeah ... that I do do short stories, and I would like all of you, if you can, to go back and read some of the n- new feeling old stories- Yeah

Charles: by Isaac Asimov and Arthur C. Clarke- 

Hannah: Cool. 

Charles: Uh, artificial intelligence, but amongst other things, many of the things that they were talking about feel so new today when you look at them, when in fact they are old and interesting. And, and I don't even wanna stop with Isaac Asimov and Arthur C. Clarke. I'll say you, 

Alice: you, yeah.

Charles: I would say Ray Bradbury- Oh, yeah ... you know, uh, Paul Anderson, some of these amazing, amazing writers. We listened to Canticle for 

Alice: Leibowitz in the car. 

Charles: That one too. That's right. An incredible book- We went through the whole full backing ... from the old and old, old book, A, A Canticle for Leibowitz, a, a fascinating concept where nuclear war has happened, and it has wiped out almost all of civilization, but how do humans react when they're put in a new environment?

Charles: And we had such a good time- Yeah ... listening to that audiobook, right? Driving on, uh, an epic road trip through nine national parks- Yeah ... and, and all the way from sea to shining sea, across the continental United States, and we were in the place where A Canticle for Leibowitz took place. Yeah, 'cause 

Alice: most post-apocalyptic fiction is, like, right after the apocalypse.

Alice: This is, like, centuries later. Right. It's rather interesting. 

Charles: And it was just based in sort of the most desolate parts of the uninhabitable southwestern United States. Mm-hmm. And there we were, driving through these places and- It was amazing ... listening to this amazing book. Um, so all kinds of things that were old, that are new again, science fiction, speculative fiction of that nature.

Charles: Everyone check it out. I think it's a super thing 

Alice: to do. All right. I think we're reaching our end of our time. 

Charles: Uh, we have, we have. Kathryn, thank you so much for letting us, you know, take all this extra time. It's a real pleasure, and, uh, to be here to have this conversation, Watchung Booksellers, uh, is just a lovely, lovely event.

Charles: Love this place. So, um, Hannah Liu, author of Mixed, thank you so much for being here with us on the podcast. For sure. Alice Liu, uh, author of the handy Artificial Intelligence Answer Book, thank you for being here on the podcast. 

Hannah: And Charles Liu, author of Supernatural Science- Yes ... thank you for being here on the 

Charles: podcast.

Charles: Oh, thank you. It is a real pleasure to be here. Everyone, thank you so much for listening. Come to Watchung Booksellers sooner rather than later, the 2026- ... Bookstore of the Year by Publishers Weekly. Woo. Woo. Thank you.

Marni: Thank you, Charles, Hannah, and Alice for joining us on the podcast and for all you do for our community.

Marni: Listeners, you can find links to their books in our show notes and on our website. 

Kathryn: Tonight, Wednesday, July 8th, we welcome Laura Sims for the launch of her latest novel, The Man. And Thursday, July 9th, Garden State Author Talks hosts North Woods author Daniel Mason for the release of his new novel, Country People, at the Montclair Art Museum.

Kathryn: Next week, we welcome Alan Pepper and Billy Altman to discuss Positively 4th and Mercer, their history of New York City's Bottom Line club. 

Marni: You can get details and tickets for all of our events, story times, and book clubs through our newsletter, show notes, or at watchungbooksellers.com.

Kathryn: Have a great summer, everybody.