Episode 35: Troubleshooting

In this episode of The Watchung Booksellers Podcast, novelists Marcy Dermansky and Hayley Krischer tackle challenges of a writer's life and troubleshoot helpful writing solutions.

Marcy Dermansky is the author of the critically acclaimed novels Very Nice, The Red Car, Bad Marie, Twins, and Hurricane Girl. She has received fellowships from the McDowell Colony and the Edward F. Albee Foundation. In March, she'll release her latest novel, Hot Air, which has been named a March IndieNext pick. She lives with her daughter in Montclair, New Jersey.  

Haley Krischer  is the author of the young adult novels, Something Happened to Allie Greenleaf, The Falling Girls, and You Belong to Me, releasing on April 15th. Her first novel for adults, Where Are You Echo Blue, came out last summer. She's an award winning journalist who has written for The New York Times, The New York Times Magazine, The Atlantic, Marie Claire, Elle, and more. 

Resources: 

Watchung Writers Group 

The Room Next Door

Books:
A full list of the books and authors mentioned in this episode is available here.

Register for Upcoming Events.

The Watchung Booksellers Podcast is produced by Kathryn Counsell and Marni Jessup and is recorded at Watchung Booksellers in Montclair, NJ.

The show is edited by Kathryn Counsell.

Original music is composed and performed by Violet Mujica.

Art & design and social media by Evelyn Moulton. Research and show notes by Caroline Shurtleff.

Thanks to all the staff at Watchung Booksellers and The Kids’ Room!

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Transcript

Marni: Hi, welcome back to the Watchung Booksellers podcast, where we bring you conversations from our bookstore's rich community of book professionals who talk about what they do for the love of books. If you're new to our show, thanks for joining us. I'm Marni and I'm here with my co producer, Kathryn.

Marni: Hey, Kathryn. 

Kathryn: Hey, Marni. 

Marni: And today we're talking about troubleshooting, what writers do when they are stuck. 

Kathryn: Yeah, we've got two great writers who we know quite well from Watchung Booksellers, Marcy Dermansky and Hayley Krischer, who are talking about what they do when they face various challenges in the writing process.

Kathryn: Facing deadlines, handling editorial notes, procrastinating. Uh, they each handle the process differently and have a great chat about how to finally get the book done. 

Marni: And both writers actually do have new books coming out this spring. Marcy Dermansky is releasing Hot Air on March 18th, and Hayley Krischer is releasing her latest YA novel, You Belong to Me, on April 15th.

Kathryn: Before we get to the chat, let's do a quick check in on what we're reading. Um, Marni, you got anything you're reading? 

Marni: Well, I'm going to just take a quick moment to plug the Young Readers Book Club at the Kids Room. It's happening on March 19th at 4pm. 8 to 12 year olds are welcome. 20 to sign up. And the book they're reading this month is The Evolution of Calpurnia Tate by Jacqueline Kelly.

Marni: And that price of 20 includes the book, so you should come to the store and sign up. It's going to be a great 

Kathryn: That's cool. I think they have like some snacks and things too. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah, super fun. 

Marni: How about you Kathryn? What are you reading? 

Kathryn: I just started reading Sleep by Honor Jones.

Kathryn: She's a writer for The Atlantic and this is her first novel. It's a novel about a divorced young woman who is reckoning with the secrets of her childhood when she brings her kids back to the house that she grew up in and it's about motherhood and childhood and how Once you have children, you still live in the middle of that, you know, and all, all your childhood stuff comes back to you.

Kathryn: Um, so it's really good and it's coming out in May. 

Marni: Oh, that sounds great. Okay, so let's meet Hayley and Marcy. Hayley Krischer is the author of the young adult novels, Something Happened to Allie Greenleaf, The Falling Girls, and You Belong to Me, releasing on April 15th. Her first novel for adults, Where Are You Echo Blue, came out last summer.

Marni: She's an award winning journalist who has written for the New York Times. The New York Times Magazine, The Atlantic, Marie Claire, Elle, and more. 

Kathryn: And with her is Marcy Dermansky, who is the author of the critically acclaimed novels Very Nice, The Red Car, Bad Marie, Twins, and most recently, Hurricane Girl.

Kathryn: She has received fellowships from the McDowell Colony and the Edward F. Albee Foundation. In March, she'll release her latest novel, Hot Air, which has already been named a March Indie Next pick. And we'll get to talk to her all about that at her launch event on March 20th. And you can get tickets for that now.

Kathryn: She lives with her daughter in Montclair, New Jersey. 

Marni: Enjoy the conversation and we'll be back after to fill you in on what's coming up in the store. 

Hayley: Hi, Marcy. Hi, Julie. How are you? I'm good. How are you? Good. So I think we are first going to start out this wonderful podcast and thank you Watchung Booksellers for having us.

Hayley: So Marcy, why don't you tell us how you came about to the store because I heard you have a story. I have 

Marcy: a story. I can't believe I have an opportunity to like. Tell it on a podcast, but I first came to watch some booksellers. Um a long time ago like about nine years ago I went to a reading It was with Pamela Ahrens who lives in Maplewood and Robin Black and I came to this reading and I think I actually even brought my mother and I was recently divorced and living with my parents and I didn't know where I wanted to live next and after I knew Three or four people in the audience, um, Kathryn Dykstra was there and, and Matthew Thomas.

Marcy: And they said, well, you should just move to Montclair. And I'm not even kidding. And about a year later, I literally moved to Montclair and I hadn't kept in touch with all of them, but I'm like, there's a bookstore and there's a Korean restaurant and it's near my family and it's near New York. And I had, it was like rolling the dice.

Marcy: And if, if this bookstore wasn't here, I wouldn't live in Montclair. Oh, that's story? 

Hayley: Yeah. Because I think that bookstores, especially if you're a creative person, it draws you in because you know that there's going to be a community there. 

Marcy: Yeah. And if you're going to move to a suburb in New Jersey, you want it to have all the good things.

Marcy: Yeah. to have an Ethiopian restaurant and a bookstore and a train to New York City and you want it to have literary people. And so I knew in the audience. That already, I was going to find some people. Oh, I 

Hayley: love that. 

Marcy: Yeah. Thanks. Um, we were going to ask the question back to you. 

Hayley: Yeah. So it's funny because I think I didn't, it took me a while to know about Wat Chung booksellers and I have lived in this area like my entire life.

Hayley: Um, and. I realized that I wanted to, um, I wanted to be able to go to a bookstore a lot. 

Yeah. 

Hayley: And I wanted to be able to, to go and just browse and talk to people. And I needed, I wanted to go to a friendly place and I think that people, it was. Probably 20 years ago 

Marcy: and, um, And I ran into you here this morning.

Marcy: We could talk about that. Yes, we can. Yeah. Yeah. On Sunday mornings from 8. 30 to 10, there's a write at the bookstore. 

Hayley: And you know, it's such a great like space to write because you're not at home. Number one, no one's bothering you. And, um, it gets you out of the house on Sunday morning and you're just kind of fixated on your own work.

Hayley: And I've been, I've gotten a lot of work done coming here. That's 

really good. 

Hayley: Yeah. And it's, it's just like an easy place to come because everybody else is working. Yeah. I mean, I go to the library too. 

Marcy: I mean, that could be our next topic, which is about writing, is about places that we like to write. Yes.

Marcy: Yeah. 

Hayley: I go to the library too, but I just feel like there's something about coming here. Yeah. That you're, it's a very specific time. Yeah. And sometimes, and I don't know if this for me is just like I like to be on deadline because it like pushes me. Oh, 

deadlines. It pushes me to write. Yeah. I mean, how do you feel about deadlines?

I love deadlines. You do? I 

Marcy: don't write, well, yeah, um, I do them with my agent. I just jump to the top instead of other people and sometimes I say, give me a deadline and I'll send you pages. Okay. And it's really effective. 

Hayley: Yeah. I mean, because I think that's why the Sunday morning thing works because you have like 830 to 10 o'clock.

Hayley: Sure. And I, I know I have an hour and a half to write and so, and I have to like get something down. Yeah. So even if I'm getting just, as long as I'm getting like a thousand words down, I feel good. And it's like that whole theory that Jamie Attenberg has, you know, with her thousand words a day. Right. And she does like this, you know, two week, um, Kind of thing where it's called, um, a thousand words a day and she wrote a whole book about it actually.

Hayley: Um, but it's, that's the thing that actually got me writing again, um, years ago when I was stuck and I was, you know, my agent was sending out my book and nobody was wanting to buy it and I knew I had to do some revisions on it, but I needed like a reason to do those revisions and, um, I thought, okay, I have a thousand words a day.

Hayley: That's going to elicit. Keep me going. And once I did that, it just sort of kind of opened up my world because it gave me a little bit of that pressure that I needed. And I know that doesn't work for everybody, but. 

Marcy: I think, I think pressure and fear are like the biggest motivators for writing pretty much.

Marcy: Of all things, like, I think happy people, it's harder to write a book. I do, I do, and I think if you're not afraid, I think people who are financially comfortable, I think that can be, they have a harder time writing a book because they don't have that fear, if I don't sell a book, I'm not going to make any money.

Marcy: I think fear is really helpful. It's really unpleasant. It's really unpleasant. 

Hayley: You're like, damn, I'm looking at this next year, I don't have a book deal and what am I supposed to do? 

Marcy: Well, but it, yeah, but you're, you're so afraid you might 

Hayley: write anyway. That you might write. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so that sort of is a good transition to put us into how, um, which is the topic of our podcast, which is how do you work through writing problems?

Hayley: Oh. So, um, so I guess. We covered deadlines, that's for sure. And I think, like, even if you don't have a book deal and you could give yourself a deadline. 

Yeah. 

Hayley: And I think that's, like, what this whole, like, 1, 000 words a day, um, and we'll put those in, like, the show notes, you know, about Jamie Attenborough's book.

Marcy: I think very few people write with book deals, to tell you the truth. I think it's like a minuscule percentage. And I think most people who do write with book deals, that it ends up crippling them. I've only heard stories about that. Like people who have large advances in books to write, it's too much pressure.

Marcy: So there are so many different ways. And a thousand words a day, for instance, is something that. doesn't work for me. Like, I don't believe in writing every day. I believe that some days I wake up and I'm just like, hell no, I'm not going to write. Some days I sit down to write and I can sit for a whole hour at a cafe and I won't even open my file.

Marcy: I think it all works differently, but I think if I, if I write with a word count with that kind of expectation, it's so easy to have your characters wake up and eat breakfast. And Do nothing. It's just like what we do in real life. But if your characters do that in fiction, I, I'm known for putting turkey sandwiches in my book.

Marcy: But I talked to you about this, the pre podcast and, and with my novel Hurricane Girl, I think I literally had a hundred pages of the narrator meeting with her friend and feeling lost. And there was a scene of them going to a deli and ordering turkey sandwiches that might have been 15 pages long.

Marcy: deleted. So, so I think there's that, but 

Hayley: Well, here's my next question then for you. Now, did you need to get through those 15 pages to get to the place where you finally got to? 

Marcy: Probably, right? Like, who's going to say I don't know. Yes, I think I did. I mean, you wish you wouldn't. You never want to write 100 pages of delete.

Marcy: Have you had an experience like that? Yeah. Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Marcy: But if you, if you sat down to write and you knew that everything that you wrote in the beginning you were going to keep at the end How would you write anything at all? You would just sit there terrified that you were, and I know writers who are paralyzed because, and I, they post about it on social media all their time, they're like, sat down to write today and I wrote a paragraph that I'm happy with.

Marcy: And what a waste of time. I'm very judgmental in that way. I'm just like, don't worry about the right word and the right, Sentence. Yeah. 

Hayley: No, just get it out. Just get it out. And I feel like, you know, and I was on a panel the other night and someone asked like, how do you get through a book? And I feel like I always go back to this advice from, um, Bird by Bird and Lamont.

Hayley: Yeah, that's a good one. Where she says, you know, the shitty first draft and just write it to the end. 

Yeah. 

Hayley: And I really, since I've been following that, I feel like I can get through an entire book. It might not be good. And, and there is like a bit of a psychological thing that, you know, you do to yourself as a writer or not a bit.

Hayley: Maybe it's like an enormous psychological thing that we do to ourselves. We're reading it and we're like, Oh my God, you're the worst writer. This sucks. How could you possibly have written this? And those are fun days. And those are fun days. Um, but yeah, I, I think you have to sort of just Kind of get through it, so I, I wonder if you have to, again, write some of those really shitty pages.

Hayley: Yeah. 

Marcy: I think you have to write some of them. Because 

Hayley: you're just like getting, you're getting through it. 

Marcy: Yeah. 

Hayley: But, 

Marcy: yeah. But then, I also don't like writing from beginning. to the end. Okay. Because. Can you talk about that? Sure. I mean, I always feel like when I'm writing and I get stuck, and this is actually what you do when you get stuck.

Marcy: Whenever I sit down to write, I never open my file and just start writing. I always go back and look at what I did before. And I always, Edit the last scene or when I move forward, I think, oh, this character is related to this character. So my beginning I'm always rewriting and rewriting and rewriting and rewriting.

Marcy: Really? Yeah, and you're beginning. Yeah, I'm always rewriting my beginning I'm always going back and redoing it and then by the time I get to the end of a book usually it's like okay There we are Like, sometimes my first ending will be, my first draft of an ending will be what I use. Not always, but, but, so.

Marcy: Because 

Hayley: you know the characters so well. Yeah, because 

Marcy: I've just been revising the whole time I write. So I think by the end of getting to the end of a first draft, I've probably written 10 drafts. But I've never gotten to the end, printed it out. I started from the beginning. I just keep looking at it on the screen.

Hayley: So um, what can you tell me about and anyone who's listening about how with the Hurricane Girl, which is Marcy's last book, which is an incredible book, um, how you got. to the ending. And I'm sorry if we're going to have a spoiler alert here. We're going to talk about the ending. And I think that it's okay because the book is already in paperback.

Hayley: And if you haven't read the book, then, then pause, you know, before we go into this part. But, um, but how did you, you, you told me earlier that. Um, that your character was like doing nothing and this is a character who needed some revenge. 

Marcy: Yeah, and I think that's a good thing for all writers is you need to, you need to be really careful about, we could talk about how many people read your work before you get anywhere with it and I don't have very many readers.

Marcy: I have one trusted reader who just loves everything that I do and I have my agent. And in this case, my agent said, Marcy, you had this big thing happen, a crime happened, and you didn't deal with it. I literally didn't deal with something that happened. So he's like, if you don't deal with that, you've got nothing.

Marcy: And that was it. And what was your character doing? What in the, in the original draft, what did she do? She was eating turkey sandwiches and she was going swimming and she was getting depressed. Okay. Depressed characters are really boring. Yeah. They teach you that in fiction workshops. Were you ever taught that?

Marcy: No. I was taught not to write about characters who were depressed, which is, I think 

Hayley: Oh, then my books need to go out the window. Well, that's the thing. Don't sell my books. Ninety 

Marcy: percent of women who write books write about depressed characters. I find that a lot of the things that I was taught, I was taught not to write about writers.

Marcy: I was taught not to write about depressed characters. I think people are often saying, don't write about passive characters. It's all the things we love to do. Yeah. 

Hayley: But your character might have been passive. But once she finally got very clear, she did something that was really outrageous and she did something against, against probably any advice that anyone would give to her.

Hayley: She got into a car, she drove down to South Carolina and she smashed a guy over the head with a vase because he assaulted her and kidnapped her. And you know, right? But I'm curious, like, just, just before you say anything else. Sure. So you said that your agent told you to go back to and give, and really give an ending.

Hayley: Yeah. So can you talk about how you even got there, that she was going to take Revenge on this guy. 

Marcy: Um, I feel like all writers know that they need to write about something and you avoid it And then as soon as you're confronted with it, like I knew what to do As soon as he told me I knew I was avoiding it.

Marcy: You know what I mean? And sometimes I feel like with writing I like to get away with things do you ever feel that way when you're writing? Yes, and then you have somebody read your right you're writing you're like Um, what about this? This is a problem. You usually can't get away with things. And I think, and I think a lot of times people think that they believe in beautiful writing so much that they don't believe in plot.

Marcy: I believe in plot. What's your feelings about writing plot, Hayley? Oh my god. 

Hayley: I, I think it's so hugely important. Right? Because I, my first book, I spent 20 years writing it. Oh, that's too long. It's way too long. Yeah. And it started as a short story. Okay. And then I just kept writing it and writing it, but there was no concept of plot.

Hayley: Did you end up publishing that book? I did. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah, something happened to Allie Greenleaf. That's so great. But that's a 

Marcy: happy story. 

Hayley: It is. Um, but it, it, I couldn't do that if I wanted to sell other books because I'd run out of time. Yeah. Um. So, I, you know, what I started doing is, and maybe like I'm going against all of the literary advice, but I started reading Save the Cat.

Marcy: I've heard of that book. I haven't read it. 

Hayley: I mean, it's great because it breaks down, um, beats of what you have to get to when you're, when you're writing. So you want to get to a catalyst, you want to get to your midpoint, you know, something happens where. All the bad guys are closing in or all the bad things start happening to your character And then you you know have this like sort of final realization, 

and it's 

Marcy: helpful.

I never think about any 

Marcy: of that stuff 

I do 

Marcy: Yeah, it works for everybody, 

Hayley: but maybe I, I think sometimes when you do think about that stuff, you think about it too much. And so, um, right now I'm like, so when I get stuck, I, I start writing down ideas on note cards and I just, I put all my, you know, my plot on note cards and I like sprawl them across.

Hayley: Yeah. Because then I think, okay, this happened, this happened, now this has to happen. Something has to happen here. Because it's sort of like what your agent said to you. Something has to happen to this character. Because if it doesn't, then why are we here? And it just, it brings me back to thinking about, um.

Hayley: Hester Kaplan, she's a, uh, she was a mentor of mine and she said, you know, um, a lot of writing, especially at the beginning of your book is sort of like Passover. You know, um, why is this night different from every other night? So why is this beginning different from, or why is this story different from every other story?

Hayley: So you always 

Marcy: have to think, where am I going to start this story and why am I starting the story here? 

Hayley: Yeah. And why am I going there? So, I, I like to do note cards and try to like sort of get myself to look at the plot. Right. But it's, it's 

Marcy: hard to do that too. I think it's great to take notes. I take notes all the time, but then I never go back to them.

Marcy: But I feel like having taken them, they're somewhere in my brain, but I can't also read my handwriting. So, anytime I write in my journal, I can't read it. Yeah. So, there's that. 

Hayley: So, what do you do, like, um, in the middle point, like, sometimes I feel like that can be like the hardest point for writers, and I'm in the middle of like two books right now because I started writing a new book because I was stuck in the sort of middle point of my other book.

Hayley: And I'm kind of like, well, where do I, where do I go now? 

Marcy: Those are hard. Yeah. Those are really 

Hayley: hard. 

Marcy: I sometimes like to just, if I'm really stuck, I'll just introduce a new character out of nowhere. Okay. And I find that really helpful. A new thing that I've just started to do, which I never did before, is I like to say part one, part two.

Marcy: And I, I didn't do that for my earlier novels and, and now I do that and I really like that because then when you start with a new part, you, you just have the permission to jump. I feel like jumping through time is really important. I feel like starting scenes, it's so, one of the things I know that I do when I'm stuck is I will start, my next scene will be the next day, and that's deadly, because that's just like real life and I feel like novels have to be like real life, very recognizable, but you have to, Keep them interesting and moving and you don't want to start the next day.

Marcy: Yeah. Right. Right. So, so I feel like by like writing part two, like I'm like, this is new, this is changing the tone and it gives me a lot of freedom. 

Hayley: Yeah. Cause you could then say, okay, do you ever say like a month later? 

Marcy: Yeah. Yeah. It's great to do that. I love to do that. Sometimes there's a scene that I really want to write with my new, I'm writing, I have a book coming out soon.

Marcy: We, by the way, we can, Hayley has a book coming out, a YA book It's coming out in April. I don't remember. Yes, it's called, um, You Belong to Me. That's so great. And Marcy has a book coming out in March. Yeah. Called Hot Air. Yeah. But what I'm writing right now is I have, I knew actually what my ending wanted to be and for the longest time, I was just so scared of it that I couldn't write.

Marcy: And one day I just I wrote it. I just sat down and wrote it and I was like, Oh, just do it. Like, you know what I mean? Don't just be scared of it. And I didn't like the way it came out in the beginning and then I just tweak it and tweak it and tweak it. So this, you hadn't written the rest of the book when you got to that point?

Marcy: I was getting there. I've got, I've got a draft of something new. Oh my God. I can't believe I admitted to that. Nobody, I hope nobody listens to this podcast now because it's not true, but yeah, but my ending really scared me and I just, one day you just write it and you just feel better. 

Hayley: Yeah. Yeah. Because then you're like, okay, now I could go back and, and figure out.

Marcy: Fix it. If you want it to, if you want to write it well, then you just might not write it all. Do you ever do what I did, like sit down for an hour and not open your file or? 

Hayley: Um, yeah. 

Marcy: I do. Okay. It's terrible, isn't it? 

Hayley: Yeah, it is. And, because I actually don't like to go back, because I find when I go back, then I get sort of stuck and obsessive about all of the things that need to get sort of, um, stuck in.

Hayley: So I use, um, the words TK, which, you know, to come. And, um, so I'll just say, okay, TK this, TK that, um, and. And then I'll try to start something new. I, I only just recently, after like a, a number of months of writing this new book, um, I just went back to the beginning yesterday because I thought, 

that must've been scary.

Hayley: Well, I just thought I have to go back to the beginning cause I can't stop thinking about it because so much of the story has changed. And um, and as I told you, I have a missing person and I haven't decided if she left willingly or if she was murdered. And so. 

Marcy: And that's what I actually like about writing is I like not knowing what's going to happen while I'm writing it.

Marcy: And that's, um, was Elizabeth Gilbert has that book called big magic. And I really actually love that book. She believes that their ideas floating in the air and you have to grab them. And she actually had a great story about a novel that she started that was like set in the Amazon wilderness that she couldn't write.

Marcy: And she kind of wrote a bunch of it, and then she stopped writing it. And then Ann Patchett wrote this amazing book whose title I just forgot that's set in the Amazon that's so good. And it's almost like Ann Patchett grabbed her idea. I loved that. I thought it was interesting. But I don't even, that's not even what I was talking about myself, which is just that I love writing when a character just says something and I'm like, I can't believe they just said that.

Marcy: A lot of times I feel like, I just talked a lot about being miserable writing in the hour where I sit and I don't work on my file, and people talk a lot about how miserable writing is, but when writing is fun, writing is just so fun, and I don't think that gets talked about enough. It's just how It's amazing how fun it is to like have written an hour and know you've done it, but also to just have these characters in your head saying things and then they do things and then they surprise you.

Marcy: It's amazing. 

Hayley: Yes. When they surprise you, that is the best time of writing. It's because it feels great. You feel like. You know, because that's our imagination, just like coming to life. And I guess that's why we're writers, because we're trying to create a world that's not the world that we already live in.

Hayley: And also, writing is so much of a puzzle, so when it feels good, it's such a great feeling. It's so rewarding. I feel like so much of the time, it's exhausting. So much pressure, but, um, but yeah, you're absolutely right. It doesn't get talked about enough about how great writing can be. Is there another good point that you think about when you're getting stuck on writing?

Marcy: Um, sometimes I teach places where I write. I, I definitely have processes where I had, I, I had a writing partner this summer and we were accountability partners and every day we would write at 8 30 in the morning and we would just send each other a text message and say, are you going to write? I'm going to write.

Marcy: And then in half an hour later, he would text me back. It was weird to be writing with a man, but he would check, come back in and say, are you, are you going to write? Are you going to write? And I, and we checked in and it worked great for like about a month and a half. And then it didn't work anymore. And so I think I spent a whole month, you're going to be on the podcast again, for a whole month I literally said, are you going to write?

Marcy: He'd say, are you going to write? And I'd say, yes. And I wouldn't write at all. I love it. He was my accountability partner. I just felt so guilty. I didn't want to let him down. And so I just said, yes, I'm writing. And then I, and now I, that, but that worked for me for a while. I wrote so many pages and then that didn't work.

Marcy: And then I had to try something new. 

Hayley: That sounds like one of your characters though. Maybe I think that would be like a great character Well, you can 

Marcy: use that by the way, I give you permission. Okay. Yeah, actually, I really like that. Okay, cuz you have one thing It's interesting. I've been to your house once you have a beautiful office.

Marcy: Oh, thank 

you 

Marcy: And sometimes I feel like I have an office now too. I love having an office It's like for the first time in my life, like I have an office as a Three years ago. But I don't always write in it. Like, I feel like that's kind of like if you have a beautiful space to write, that's a lot of pressure too.

Marcy: It is because I don't always like to write in my 

Hayley: office either. Yeah. Um, I like it when my family's home and I can close the door. You can write 

when your family's home? I 

Hayley: can. That's crazy. Yeah, it is crazy. And I say, I become like Jack Nicholson in The Shining. 

Don't interrupt me. That's awesome. Or don't you understand that every time you walk in.

Hayley: So now I have, and I have for some reason a glass door, um, on my office and my office by the way is a very tiny little room just on the front of my house, but you know, it just has bookshelves. And it's just kind of, it's white. And so, and that's works. Um, but, um, yeah, so I, uh, I shut the curtain on the glass door cause I put up a curtain.

Hayley: And so it's very dramatic. So, and when I walk in there and then I, Close the curtain. 

Marcy: Wow. Very dramatically. Yeah. It sounds like a scene in a movie. You could be Frances McDormand. Could she play you? She could. She's a little too old, but otherwise I think she'd be perfect. Thank you. Yeah, she's, yeah. She couldn't.

Marcy: She would very dramatically. Yeah. 

Close the curtains. Can't you see her doing that? I'm writing. 

Hayley: Yeah. And then inevitably somebody knocks on the door. You know what happens is I have too many animals. Now I have four animals. Yeah. And so now it's just Do they come into your office while you're writing?

Hayley: They do. They want to come in. 

Marcy: Oh, so the door is closed, they want to get in. Yeah, they want to get in. You can't close the door. 

Hayley: And so I close the door and then somebody's scratching on the door and I open and I let that one dog in. Then I, then I close the door and close the curtains once again and I think, okay, this is finally it.

Hayley: The dog is sitting under my desk, everything's going to be great. And then there's a cat meowing outside of the door. 

Marcy: And then I have a cat that likes to like sit on my computer while I'm writing. He just put his butt on it. Yeah. 

It's helpful. It is helpful. Then you're like, you're so cute, but I need to write.

Marcy: When I was a child, I had standard poodles and I was always putting standard poodles in my books. And now I'm only putting cats in my books. I, I have cats in my, in my new book that's coming out. There's a woman with six cats. So it's interesting. And now there are no dogs in my books anymore. So I think the pets that you have are really important to what we write.

Hayley: That is interesting. And I don't put my pets in right now. Well, maybe if you're stuck. 

Marcy: Here's some writing advice. This is some good writing advice. Oh, I have other really good writing advice for you. 

Hayley: Tell it, babe. This is where you need to let it out. 

Marcy: Don't hurt your animals in your books because your fans will just kill you.

Marcy: They'll just be like, I can't believe you hurt the dog. Did you do that? I heard a cat once and that was upsetting to people. In Bad Maria, I heard a cat and in my novel, Very Nice, there was a dog that was a major character and I literally had people writing me saying, well, Marcy, I'm reading your book and I'm really worried about the dog.

Marcy: And I say no and then they can keep reading. Oh my god. And so there are a lot of great works of fiction where dogs and cats do get hurt, but I would just advise you if you put an animal in your book, not to hurt them. 

No, I couldn't 

Marcy: do that. Yeah, why would you do that? 

Hayley: I, I personally couldn't. Yeah. That just me, but, you know, but I think that that's a such a dark, uh, book.

Hayley: thing to do and I know Laura Sims did that. Did she? Didn't she? In the, in Looker? 

Marcy: I read Looker when it came out and I don't remember, but Laura, how could you do that? Yeah, she heard the cat. 

Hayley: I think that there was a cat. I love Laura. Me too. I love Laura too and I loved and I I came here to watch on booksellers because I was sort of like the obsessive, um, uh, character in her book, was obsessed with the actress.

Hayley: Instead I was, yes, I was obsessed with Laura and the book. And so I came here because she was doing a reading and, um, and she was just so normal and nice. And I thought, how did Laura write this book? 

Marcy: Oh, by the way, for my talk for Hot Air, Laura and I are going to be talking together. 

Oh, you are? Yes, I hope you come, Hayley.

I will. Alright. 100 percent okay. Because if I 

Marcy: stalk Laura, I will stalk you. But so I, I know, yeah, please. But if you, now, I, I, so here's new advice that I never thought of before. If you're stuck in your writing, put in a pet because they're great. They're really important to my whole existence, like my happiest moments in the day might be between me and my cats.

Marcy: Really? Yeah. My daughter's not always nice to me. My cats are just like so sweet. 

Hayley: I think you're so lucky because I have four animals. That's too many maybe? 

Marcy: It's too many. I can't. Just give two of them away. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Somebody 

has to die. 

Marcy: No, no, 

no. Somebody does. No. Yeah. But maybe that needs to go in my book.

Yeah, sure. 

Hayley: I just, cause I do have a writer in one book and she doesn't know what to do and she's kind of falling in love with the wrong people. So maybe there needs to be some animals who are kind of driving you crazy. 

Why not? Yeah. 

Hayley: Um, so I have a question for you. Okay. Do you give your agent your chapters when you're writing or do you finish the book and then give it to your agent?

Hayley: It depends. Okay. Um, yeah. What do you do? Well, I, I, I give my agent chapters and I get a lot of feedback from her and I feel like she is really great with brainstorming. With that said, recently I have heard from, um, other writers. That it might be best to just write what you're, what you're feeling. I think I actually heard this from you.

Hayley: Yeah, you did. I this to me. Yeah. Um, and maybe, you know, because then you could have your agent's voice in your head. Yeah. And, or whoever you're, the person is that is. That's sort of your, your most trusted person. 

Marcy: Well, I always feel like people, writers that if you write a book because you're worried about whether or not it's going to sell and you have that voice in your head, that's just a mistake.

Marcy: It's no good at all. You just have to write what you want to write. Yeah. I have had experiences with editors. A lot of times after you sell a book, it's crazy. You edit and edit and edit a book and then you sell a book and then your editor edits your book. Yes. And, and I've had, I've had editorial notes that I don't agree with at all.

Marcy: And what do you do? What do you do? What I have decided, um, you can never just ignore your editor and I had I had one time with a, I consider it a fight, like I remember one time editing a book where I was literally cursing an editor, it's not Jenny Jackson, because she's my current editor, but I was literally like cursing her out loud, but it was like it was a fight, but I was fighting with her and she wasn't in the room, and when I realized I didn't want to do what she had suggested, I did something else, but I knew I had to win her over, so I feel like you really can't, if somebody gives you editing advice that you don't like, it's amazingly helpful.

Marcy: Because they're recognizing a problem, 

but it's 

Marcy: always your book. And so if someone says there's a problem in your book, they're right, because they've read your book. Like when people have problems with your book at that stage, I don't ignore it. I just do what I want, but I convince them. So you have to change things.

Marcy: But I always believe because I edit people's novels, too. It's like your novel. And if you make changes that you don't like, then you're not going to like your book. So I feel like you have to sort of curse your editor in your head and then do what you want to do, but win them over. Does that make sense?

Hayley: Of course it does. And it's very interesting because It's, you know, I, I tend to let go with the flow with my editors. If they're giving me feedback, then I want to take it and sort of, you know, make it, make the edit my own. Yeah. It's, you know, and because I, I feel like it's an open ended conversation. Um, but one time very specifically with my last book, Where Are You, Echo Blue.

Hayley: Um, before my editor bought the book, she said, I have an issue. My, I had a character who I had locked in the basement and she said, this just doesn't work for the character. And I, I had a lot of trouble with that. And she thought, she said, I, you know, before I buy this, I want to make sure you're going to be okay.

Hayley: Are you, can you let go of this? What did you do? Well, I of course wanted the book deal. Yep. And I thought to myself, you know, can I get rid of this? And here's the, the question, does it serve the character? So did I want the character to be in the basement because I wanted to write something really crazy, you know, or did something else, was something else supposed to happen with that character that would have served the character?

Hayley: And I thought, you know what? This is my first adult book deal. I want to be able to hear what somebody that I respect has to say. They knew how my character was, was going to be obsessive and, and have, you know, um, some mental illness and, you know, have a lot of issues. So is she right? Did this take it too far?

Yeah. 

Hayley: And, um, you know, it's really funny. I still don't know. Huh? I still, I took it out because I, again, I wanted the deal and I, and I thought, okay. It was, I think it was a deal breaker. And so I, I thought, okay, let me, let me work with this. But at the same time, it would have been a very, very different book and um, and would I have wanted that?

Hayley: I don't know. It's still a question. I, I still wonder to this day, every time I tell that story, you 

Marcy: just have to move on. You have to move on. When you said in the very beginning that you worked on a book for 20 years and you sold it, I'm so happy you sold it because I know so many writers that just fall in love with the book that they're working on, and they'll spend 10 years writing a book, and they'll edit it, and they'll revise it, where it gets to a point where they literally hate it.

Marcy: I hate working on the book that they're working on and it's the most painful thing. I don't know about you, but I do have, I do have a book in a drawer. Like I feel like most writers don't know this, but I have a book that got sent out that didn't get published and I just decided to let it go and I had the choice of like revising it and I'm like, you know what?

Marcy: We're going to keep that book in the drawer. And sometimes people say, Hey, do you want to go back to that? It was my spaceship book. I wrote a book set on a spaceship. Bad idea. But I do not want to go back to that book ever. And I think it's a really hard thing as a writer to put in. I mean, you know, I spent like a year and a half, two years on that one.

Marcy: It's sad. It's sad. But I think writers can get really stuck because they don't want to admit defeat. But I think once you joy out of writing, once you hate what you're working on, it's, it's, It's, it's just too difficult. 

Yeah. 

Hayley: Yeah. And you know, I ended up really loving the ending of, of the book. 

That's so good.

Hayley: But there was, there was this part that I still felt like about this basement and you know what? I could put it somewhere else. I think you should put it in your new book. Yeah. I don't, it doesn't have to be, just because it didn't work in that book doesn't mean I can't use it again. And I think that's really important to remember when you're writing.

Hayley: That sometimes you have to like sort of shelf a, You know, an idea. It all comes back. And wait for it to come, kind of, come back. 

Marcy: I feel like all of life is material. I feel like, do you ever have people that say to you, um, that they want to be put into your books? Do you know what I mean? You can write about me one day.

Marcy: Yes. I feel like the last thing you ever want is somebody you know to write about you. Ah. So, you never. It's really dangerous. That's a whole other hour of conversation that's talking, writing about people you know. But I love it when I'm writing and this really unimportant thing that happened to me like 10 years ago suddenly becomes like in my book.

Marcy: I just love it when snippets of your life just slip in. That's a fun part. 

Hayley: Yes, yes, I agree. 

Marcy: Yeah. I just, we were talking about, um, a movie, um, just Tilda Swinton and Julianne Moore are in the room next door and there's a character that's dying and she wears a yellow coat. We were just talking about this.

Marcy: So Tilda Swinton is wearing a yellow coat and what I'm writing right now I just put in Tilda Swinton's yellow coat. It was just so fun. I just write to please myself sometimes. 

Hayley: I, you have to. I love that. That's like, that's excellent advice. 

Marcy: So please yourself. Please yourself. Yeah. Sometimes what I've been told lately is I feel like I've been really indulgent with my work.

Marcy: I've been writing. Like how? I've been writing too many cats. Oh. Too many swimming pools. Like I, I mean, I have three books in a row with swimming pools and I've just got to stop, but it's also just what I want to write about. That's your thing. 

But I don't, 

Marcy: but you know, there's a writer Haruki Murakami and have you ever, he has Haruki Murakami.

Marcy: Bingo! And it's like a joke, like, does a character listen to jazz? Take a drink. Does a character swim laps? Take a drink. He repeats himself, and he repeats himself, and he repeats himself, and for a long time he was my favourite writer, for the longest time, and he gave me permission to just repeat all the things that I love.

Hayley: Yeah. I love that idea as well. Yeah. So I'm giving you advice to Sarah. Okay. Thank you. I appreciate that. I hate it all because I have been stuck. 

Marcy: Oh, you just write about the things you love and put in some dogs. Yeah, and put in some dogs. Yeah. Yeah. And don't hurt them. 

Hayley: No . Don't let them die. Don't let them 

die.

No, for sure. Let them die. 

Marcy: What have you been reading lately? I've been reading. I mean, I've been reading a lot of books that are coming out in 2025 because, because I'm interested in what's coming out. Okay. So you're getting ARCs. I'm getting ARCs. Yeah. So it's like, what are you looking forward to? And my friend Lynn Steger Strong wrote a book called The Float Test.

Marcy: That's really wonderful. And there's an amazing character named Fred who's a tormented writer and she, Fred is my, maybe the best tormented writer I've seen on the page in a long time. Really? Yeah. That's really good. 

Okay. And 

Marcy: I mean, I don't know, Kevin Wilson has a new book that's coming out, but I, I, I'm on the list to get it, but I haven't read it yet.

Marcy: And I just recently read an anthology that someone's given to me about, about the Gilmore Girls of all things. And it was just so fun to read because I'm, um, because I watched that show. You haven't watched it. We talked about this, but I've, I've seen that series about five times, like all the way from beginning to end with my daughter and then on my own when it came out.

Marcy: And so there's a new anthology. It's called Life's Too Short about, it's so amazing how the Gilmore Girls has affected other people's lives. So I got that book when someone gave it to me and I'm like, 

it's so fun. So people 

Hayley: love the Gilmore Girls. I have a friend who names her daughter Lorelai. 

Marcy: Really?

Hayley: Right? Isn't it? 

Marcy: It is Lorelai. I wouldn't pick Rory though. 

Hayley: Yeah. But she, this, this one of her kids is Lorelai and she calls her Lo. I love that. 

Marcy: Oh, that's wonderful. 

Hayley: But what, what, what have you been reading that you love? So I'm in the middle of reading, um, Colored Television by Danzi Sena. I read that book.

Hayley: Yes. Which I, I just, and I've actually been listening to it. Yeah. And I just came in this morning to, uh, watch on booksellers, um, and had to buy it because I needed to sort of, Study what she does because that's another thing that I do when I'm stuck or just when I'm trying to figure out even a sentence.

Hayley: I like to just read what other writers and how they're. 

Marcy: And that's a book that's all about writing and about failure and the misery of right. Oh, and that's actually about a woman who spends. Where it's an 800 page Bahamuth novel that drives her insane. So it's a great book to write about the pain of writing.

Marcy: Yes. And she really goes 

Hayley: after how much she hates writing in that book. And it's interesting because I wonder how she actually feels about writing because she, it's a no hold, like no holds barred. I mean, she just, she's just like writing. It's horrible. We should all write for TV. Yes, and we should all write for TV, make money, and there's no point in, in writing because it just, it's, it's like a time suck and it's a waste of time and books are a waste of time.

Hayley: Now, I, I don't know, I'm sure she obviously doesn't feel this way, but she was feeling that way in the moment her character was feeling that way. Um, and between her and her husband, I mean, Danzy, Senna, is her husband is Percival Everett. Oh, right. What a power couple. I mean, serious power couple. Um, and so, it's fascinating because there's so much about writing that, you know, it's They have offered to the world in the past couple of years.

Hayley: Um, so it was interesting to read this and see her character be just completely fed up with writing. Um, and see, that's 

Marcy: the writers can write about writing. It's a bad rule. 

Hayley: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I just love how she. And her characters just keep going downhill, downhill, downhill. And that's, to me, like, those are the most fun books.

Marcy: You have to go to a crisis and come out of it. I think that's like a rule that probably is true. 

Hayley: Yeah. 

Marcy: You have to push, you have to push things. 

Hayley: You have to. And I just love that she just keeps getting herself into it so much more. Just digging the hole, digging the hole. Yeah. So, but not every book is like the last book I read was, um, Margo's Got Money Troubles.

Hayley: Oh, that was Rufy Thorpe. I mean, that book is so, it's a perfect book. I've read all of Rufy's novels. Okay. Yeah. I mean, that, that book 

is perfect. 

Hayley: Yeah. She is not digging a hole. Digging a hole. She is going up in the world, up in the world, or at least getting her life together the entire time in the book.

Hayley: But there's a trajectory, so I guess that's the thing, like, is if you have such a clear trajectory for your book, then your plot is You're, you're able to keep moving your pot. Yeah. And those are sort of the best books. Yeah. Um, I think most characters don't go in the upper motion of Rufy Thorpe's, this book, because I know her other books it's great.

Hayley: And I'm, 

Marcy: I'm hoping with this book, that book got so much great attention and it's got the TV show, it's got Elle Fanning, it's all going to happen. I'm hoping that everybody, if you haven't, like go back and read everything that she's written. Yes. She's so good. One thing I like about Rufy's work is sometimes, um.

Marcy: I feel like with literary fiction that the more dense and the more difficult it is to read, the more praise that it receives. And Rufy's books, like Kevin Wilson's books, they're just so wonderful to read that I think people don't necessarily value them because they're not. Difficult. But I 

Hayley: Oh, interesting.

Hayley: Yeah. Right. Because it's not like flowery or poetic writing. 

Yeah. But it's the, the work itself. Those are some of my 

Hayley: favorite books. Yeah. And, and especially because they're, they're coming to re their characters are coming to these realizations that we as readers relate to. They're great. Yeah. Yeah. Um, let's You're so good at 

Marcy: this, Hayley.

Marcy: Oh, thank you. You're welcome. I'm glad I'm doing this with you. 

Hayley: I'm glad I'm doing this with you because you've just I feel like you just really opened up so much. It's a lot of like stuckness that I was feeling, so. It's nice. I guess here is a perfect way for us to sort of end that conversation. If you're feeling stuck, talk to other writers.

Hayley: Even if it's online, talk to other people. It's really important to get out of your Writing is so isolating. Yeah. It's important to sort of like get out of your head and like have, just have a conversation like Marcy and I just did. 

Marcy: I actually like, I feel like writers were like an odd breed of people and it's really nice to talk to other writers because we tend to understand each other.

Hayley: Yes. Well, this was really fun, Marcy. I'm so glad we got a chance to do this. Thank you for inviting me.

Marni: Thank you, Hayley and Marcy, for being on the show and for all your insights into how you get a book out into the world. We look forward to celebrating your newest books on March 18th and April 15th. Listeners, you can find a link to all the books they talked about in our show notes and at watchyoungbooksellers.

Marni: com. 

Kathryn: Tonight, February 25th, the Montclair Public Library is hosting bestselling author Curtis Sittenfeld. To talk about her new book of stories, Show Don't Tell. On Thursday, February 27th, we are hosting our Thought Daughter Book Club in the bookstore. This month, they are reading Night Crawling by Laila Motley.

Marni: On Sunday, March 2nd, we have an author story time with Joyce Wan, reading Be My Yummy in the Kids Room. And parents, don't forget to sign up for the new Kids Room newsletter, which will be coming out next week. And we'll feature only kids related books and events. 

Kathryn: You can find out details for all these events in our newsletter, show notes, or at watch on booksellers.

Kathryn: com. 

Marni: The Watchung Booksellers podcast is produced by Kathryn Council and Marni Jessup, and it's recorded at Watchung Booksellers in Montclair, New Jersey. The show is edited by Kathryn Council and original music is composed and performed by Violet Mujica, art and design and social media by Evelyn Moulton, research and show notes by Caroline Shurtleff.

Marni: Thank you to the staff at Hwacheong Booksellers and The Kids Room for all their hard work and love of books. 

Kathryn: And thank you for listening. If you enjoyed the show, please like, follow, and share it. You can follow us on social media at Hwacheong Booksellers, and if you have any questions or ideas, you can reach us at wbpodcast at hwacheongbooksellers.

Marni: com. We'll see you next time. Until then, for the love of books, keep reading.