Episode 30: The Book Doctors

In this episode of the Watchung Booksellers, authors and entrepreneurs Arielle Eckstut and David Henry Sterry discuss becoming The Book Doctors--their business of teaching writers how to get published.

Arielle Eckstut is co-founder of The Book Doctors. She is the author of nine books including The Secret Language of Color: The Science, Nature, History, Culture and Beauty of Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue & Violet. She is also an agent-at-large at the Levine Greenberg Rostan Literary Agency, where for over 20 years, she has been helping hundreds of talented writers become published authors. Lastly, Arielle co-founded the iconic company, LittleMissMatched, and grew it from a tiny operation into a leading national brand, which now has stores from coast to coast, everywhere from Disneyland to Disney World to Fifth Avenue in New York City.

David Henry Sterry is co-founder of The Book Doctors. He is the author of 16 books on a wide variety of subjects, from memoir to middle grade fiction, sports to reference. His work has been translated into over a dozen languages, optioned by Hollywood, and appeared on the cover of the Sunday New York Times Book Review. He is a regular contributor to The Huffington Post. Before writing professionally, David was a comic and an actor. His one man show, based on his memoir, Chicken, was named the number one show in the United Kingdom for its entire run at the Edinburgh Theatre Festival, Fringe by The Independent.

Resources:
The Book Doctors
America's Next Great Author
Workman Publishing

Books:
A full list of the books and authors mentioned in this episode is available here.

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The Watchung Booksellers Podcast is produced by Kathryn Counsell and Marni Jessup and is recorded at Silver Stream Studio in Montclair, NJ.

The show is edited by Kathryn Counsell and Bree Testa. Special thanks to Timmy Kellenyi and Derek Mattheiss.

Original music is composed and performed by Violet Mujica.

Art & design and social media by Evelyn Moulton. Research and show notes by Caroline Shurtleff.

Thanks to all the staff at Watchung Booksellers and The Kids’ Room!

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Transcript

Marni: Hi, welcome back to the Watchung Booksellers Podcast, where we bring you conversations from our bookstore's rich community of book professionals who talk about different aspects of the book world.

Marni: And if you're new to our podcast, thanks for joining us. I'm Marni and I'm here with my co producer, Kathryn. Hey, Kathryn, how are you? And what are you reading? Uh, 

Kathryn: wow, you thrown a lot at me, Marni. Yeah, sorry. Um, I'm okay. A little, uh, you know, shaken up about the state of the world at the moment, but We'll persevere and we'll keep reading because that's what I do and that's what we can all do.

Kathryn: I am reading a book that was recently one of our picks for our new subscription service called Postmarked Pages. Evelyn started this program where, you can buy a subscription for one month or three months, and you can buy that for yourself or for anybody else that you wanted to gift it to.

Kathryn: , and, uh, It's in four different categories. There's literary fiction, there's mysteries, there's romance and board books for babies. So our team of booksellers will surprise you with a book pick in the category that you've chosen. Um, and I'm starting a book that was last month's mystery pick, which is called Suburban Dicks and, uh, in addition to it being a really fun title it was Nicole's favorite read last year.

Kathryn: And, , it's a debut, book from one of the co creators of Deadpool and it's about two amateur sleuths so I think it's going to be. Good read for me. How about you? 

Marni: I, I just started reading The Idiot by Elif Batuman. It came out in 2017.

Marni: Uh, and I just started reading it, so I'm only a few pages in, but so far it's pretty funny. I'll let you know next time. 

Kathryn: So today we are bringing you two guests who know a lot about books and, , helping writers become published authors. , they are two great friends to the store and also to the literary community in Montclair.

Kathryn: David Henry Stary and Arielle Ekstadt, also known as the Book Doctors. 

Marni: Yeah, and David and Arielle are going to explain who they are and what they do, so we'll let them get started . 

Kathryn: Enjoy the talk and we'll be back after to fill you in on what's coming up in the store.

David: Hello, we're The Book Doctors. I'd like to introduce my partner in crime. She was a literary agent for 25, 30 years? 

Arielle: 25 years at Levine Greenberg Rostam. 

David: Ah, she was in fact my agent. She's an entrepreneur that started a company called Little Mismatched which began by selling socks in packs of threes that don't match.

David: That company blew up to the point where they had stores all the way from Disneyland to Fifth Avenue in New York City. She's also the author of 10 books, uh, and she is an executive producer on a show called America's Next Great Author, which we co created together. And she is the founding partner, with me, of a company called The Book Doctors.

David: And perhaps most importantly, she is the author. The mother of my child, Ariel Ekstad. 

Arielle: And I'd like to introduce my partner in crime, David Henry Sterry, who is the author of 16 books and counting. 

Arielle: They range in subject matter from memoir to middle grade fiction, from sports to reference. His first book was a national bestseller. His last book was on the cover of the Sunday New York Times Book Review. He was a professional actor for 20 years, a professional screenwriter. He is also the executive producer of America's Next Great Author, and the co founder of the book Doctors With Me, but perhaps most importantly, he is the father of my child.

David: So, we are book doctors. , should we define book doctors first? Or should we tell how we got to be the book doctors? 

Arielle: I would like to tell how we got to be the book doctors first.

Arielle: Would you like to 

David: start or should I? Yeah, yeah. You go ahead. We're married by the way. 

Arielle: Yeah, we're, yeah. 

David: So this is also a podcast about being married. Yeah. 

Arielle: And working together. Successfully. So, we, David and I, had each written a book about something that we were really passionate about. I wrote a book about Jane Austen.

Arielle: David wrote a book about Satchel Paige. And we had these books coming out with, uh, Two of the biggest publishers, uh, in the land. 

Yes. 

Arielle: And, , when we went to talk to our publicity teams, we found out that they had no publicity plans whatsoever. The plans did not exist. And we had to come up with our own publicity.

David: So I, I call the local bookstores near us, which is what you do, you know, you want, we want to do an event there. We have a book come out and they said, well, uh, if you can bring, um, Satchel Paige or Jane Austen down to the bookstore with you, we'd love to have an event with you. But since they've both been dead for, you know, Many years, that seemed impossible.

Arielle: But what we did know is that so many people want to write a book. Yeah. And we knew this because I was a literary agent at the time 

David: and So we're at a party and it's getting to be midnight. This is in San Francisco. And the word gets out that There's a literary agent at the party, which of course is Ariel.

David: They flocked like moths to the flame, pitching their books drunkenly at midnight. And the light bulb went off over my head. We should do an event where, you know, we show people how to take the thing you're passionate about and make a book out of it and do that in the bookstore. 

Arielle: So we created this workshop and we took it Up and down the West Coast to independent bookstores.

Arielle: Great independent bookstores, um, from Southern California to Northern Washington state. And just 

David: put the books in the back of the truck and van and took off. 

Arielle: And we had these amazing events and sometimes two people would show up and sometimes 150 people would show up. And at the end of our tour, um, We had friends who were hearing about how this was going.

Arielle: Someone called and said, we have an opening on an NPR show, and we're wondering if you guys would like to come on the show. And we're like, duh. 

David (2): Yeah. 

Arielle: And talk about how to put your passion into print. Yeah. So we said, yes. And, um, shortly thereafter, One of our favorite publishers. And by 

David: the way, I should say that when we did the event, the phone lines just lit up because people were so interested in how to get their books published.

David: When we did the radio show. Radio show. Yeah, when we did the radio 

Arielle: show, people were so Anxious to be able to see 

David: Such a giant audience. Yeah. Yeah, 

Arielle: so Shortly thereafter Peter Workman who was the founder and publisher of Workman books one of the greatest publishers ever Said I think there's an audience for that book and we're like what book and he said The book about how to get your book published.

Arielle: And that became a book called The Essential Guide to Getting Your Book Published. Well, 

David: first it became putting your passion into print. That's a 

Arielle: whole other story. Trying to keep things moving. See how this 

David: works, 

David (3): marriage wise? Yeah. 

Arielle: That's on podcast number two of how to do that. So the book became the essential guide to getting your book published.

Arielle: And then Workmen, unlike the other two unnamed publishers who were far bigger than Workmen, They had all kinds of plans for publication. Yes. And we got to go on a 25 city tour. It was so exciting. Oh, it 

David (3): was very 

David: exciting. 

Arielle: But, David had a genius marketing idea. Oh, thank 

David: you, darling. Thank you. So, I thought, what if we do this event where people get to pitch their book to a panel of experts and they get one minute to pitch it.

David: And, uh, then, after the event's over, we name a winner and we introduce them to a publisher or agent 

Arielle: And this was when American Idol was kind of at its peak. Yes, 

David: American Idol for books. So 

Arielle: people really understood immediately. We just said, this is American Idol for books. And they went, 

David: oh. 

Arielle: So, strangely enough, um, the, the people at Workman were a little nervous about the event.

Arielle: Very nervous. And, cause they were like, they thought everything through. Like every detail and David was like, let's just go do this event, blah, blah, blah. But they got on board. They planned this amazing event at the Strand Bookstore in New York City. And when we arrived about an hour early for the event, I was 

David (2): so nervous because I thought, Oh my God, what if it bombs?

David (2): I'll never work in the business again. 

Arielle: Exactly. So, you know, um, So we get there an hour early. And lo and behold, there's this huge line that snakes all the way around the block. And we thought 

David: Is this for a reading of Grumpy Cat? Yeah. Is 

Arielle: there Grumpy Cat here? Yeah, we thought there must be a celebrity reading.

Arielle: Is there an Obama 

David: here? Yeah, right. 

Arielle: So we asked people why they were in line and they said we're here for Pitch Aboard. I want to pitch our book! Mom, I 

David (2): got a book to pitch! 

Arielle: So we knew right away that this was going to be a major hit and we had such a blast. Oh my god, it was so fun. And the whole place was packed and we heard amazing pitches.

David (3): We 

Arielle: did, we did. We have now done this event over 500 times from rural Alaska 

David: to Deadwood, South Dakota, 

Arielle: to New Orleans, to Miami. You name it, we've probably been there. And dozens and dozens of the people who have not just won Pitch a palooza, but just pitched have become award winning and best selling authors.

Arielle: They've gone 

David: from being talented amateurs to professionally published authors. 

Arielle: And some of those people include the Multi award winning children's book illustrator and writer, Raoul III. And, um, the best selling women's thriller writer, Mae Cobb. Whose 

David: book is being made into a Netflix show.

David: Huge! It's huge, like the cavalcade of stars. Yeah, yeah, 

Arielle: yeah. Yeah, and the Newbery Honor Award. Award winner Rajani LaRocca, and even, um, one of my favorite books, um, and my favorite pitch, possibly ever, Anne Ralph's Grow a Little Fruit Tree, which was a New York Times Best Gardening Book. Um. 

David: And we always try to get people who don't typically have a voice, a seat at the table.

David: Because New York publishing was just, is so, uh, restrictive. We try to find these people who, who, uh, aren't represented in mainstream publishing. 

Arielle: Which is very easy to do because if you go anywhere outside of Manhattan, most people do not have connections to Manhattan centric publishing. And 

David: what's, one of the things that's fascinating to me, one of our first successes was a book called Love Inshallah, which was an anthology of Muslim American women, uh, talking about their, their, their love lives.

David: As soon as I heard the pitch, I'm like, this is a book. Are you kidding? They'd been rejected so many times, but we found just the right publisher for them. And that book just took off. 

Arielle: Yep. And we, we also heard an incredible pitch in South Dakota from a fifth generation farmer who had a. And, um, he, he got a book deal for his, uh, fabulous stories that he writes.

Arielle: So people from all different kinds of backgrounds. And, and that was the core of the idea of our business, which we founded. Shortly after we started doing Pitch a Paloozas, and our business is called The Book Doctors. 

David: And The Book Doctors, the idea of it is to take people from the origin of the book, the idea of the book.

David: Because sometimes people are writing the wrong idea. We had someone pitch, oh, I want to do a book that's all, everything you want to know about giving birth. And we're like, well, have you heard of what to expect when you're expecting? It's only sold about a trillion copies. No, I never heard of that. So picking the right idea through making, uh, through writing the book.

David: Putting a proposal together. Finding an agent or a publisher. How to navigate that process, uh, working with an editor, working with a publisher. Or if you want to self publish, how to do that. And then finally, how to get your book out into the world and find the people who are going to be passionate. And not just readers, but evangelists for your book..

Arielle: And a lot of our business, um, revolves around what we call a developmental edit. So this is when you have a finished manuscript or a part of a manuscript where you want to get an overview of where you are in the process. How close to sending this out to an agent or an editor are you, or for self publishing purposes?

Arielle: And so we thoroughly read a book, and then we write a detailed editorial letter telling the writer what is working. What is not working and where they need to go from there. 

David: So it's really a step by step, blow by blow explanation of what this book needs to go from being pretty darn good to sellable, to something that is ready to go out into the world.

Arielle: And the other thing that we spend a huge amount of time on is the pitch. And the pitch and the query are two very closely related things. Um, and most people have no idea how to pitch their book. 

David (3): And, 

Arielle: um, it's something that we talk about as being important from the moment you have an idea. And, and why is that?

Arielle: It's because the pitch is the one thing that follows you from that first spark. through and past publication. And, and here's how it follows you. You come up with that book idea and someone says to you, Hey, 

David: you're writing a book. What's your book about? 

Arielle: And your answer to that question is your first version of the pitch.

Arielle: And most people are terrible at that. This 

David: is like a guy and a dog and the dog's really cute. And the dog goes to the like, uh, store. 

Arielle: Yeah. And you're already like bored, spacing out, all this kind of stuff. So then, you know, as you start to figure out what your book is, you start to get better at telling people about it, and then eventually, usually you want to either pitch it to an agent or an editor, or you want to self publish the book, in which case the pitch goes on the back of the book or up on an online site as the description of the book.

Arielle: So you have to develop this pitch in order to get people interested. Let's say you You do get an agent. That agent then uses the pitch to send to editors. Editors then use that pitch with their sales, publicity, and marketing teams to get them on board with the book. And then the sales team goes out to bookstores like Watchung Booksellers and pitches the book.

Arielle: to uh, the buyers there and the publicity team goes out to the media and pitches the book. And when the book finally comes out and you go into Watchung Booksellers and you say, I'm looking for a book about Fill in the blank. Satchel page. Satchel page. They're ready with that pitch to tell the person why this is the perfect book for them.

David: Or, if someone comes in and they're just browsing through the bookstore and they love thrillers, let's say, and they, ooh, this looks like an interesting book, they look on the back of the book and what do they see? Your pitch. And we live in an attention span deficit culture. And if you can't tell somebody what's great, awesome and absolutely readable about your book in 250 words, you have failed.

Arielle: Yeah. And I would say the thing that distinguishes David and I, um, and our business is that we ourselves are entrepreneurs. And we see this process Unfortunately, as one that requires entrepreneurship if you want to sell books if you want to sell books and Or you don't have like incredible connections or your parent isn't a best selling author or a 

David: Kardashian 

Arielle: or Kardashian or what have you so , we want you to have a great book and that's part of the process, but we also want you to have the tools to be able to sell that book and to market that book.

Arielle: And that's often something that is left out of the process. And what's very sad about that is so many great books end up not getting published. 

David: See there's a big difference between being a great writer and a great writer And an author. The word author, the first part of that word, authority. And a great author doesn't just write a great book.

David: They know how to get the book published. They know how to talk in public. They know how to reach out to people. They know how to, they network all the time. They have a network of people that they've been developing for years and years. Oftentimes, you know, a writer will say, Oh, well, when the book comes out, I'll have a website up then.

David: And then I will reach out to people. And of course, at that point, uh, the media is going to contact me because I have a book out. Well, it doesn't really work like that. No, 

Arielle: we've had so many people say, I'd be willing to go on Colbert. I totally would. 

David: I would when Steve calls, I'm going to say, 

Arielle: yeah, 

David: Steve, 

Arielle: I'll be on your show.

Arielle: So David and I have a party trick that we do. That's part of our marketing arsenal that we developed because we're a couple. So we wrote a book together and we're like, how do we, what, what do we have that makes us unique and that will make someone say, Oh, that's interesting. So when we developed the pitch for the essential guide to getting your book published, We decided to kind of create a performance out of it.

David: It's a duet. 

Arielle: It's a duet. So shall we trot that out? 

David: Sure. 

Arielle: Okay. I hope we get it right. We haven't done it in a while. I 

David: know. The last time we did it, there was a knee stumble. 

Arielle: Okay. You ready? Yeah. The Essential Guide to Getting Your Book Published is a step by step, blow by blow explanation of how to take an idea you're passionate about, make a book out of it, get it published, and deliver it into the hands, heads, and hearts of readers all over the world.

Arielle: Thank you very much. 

David: You didn't see this, but we also had a choreographer come in, so at the end we have a bit of choreographed dance. Yes, 

Arielle: exactly. Yeah. 

David: I'm saying it's silly, but we actually do. 

Arielle: Yeah, yeah. So this, this brings us By the way, 

David: good job. 

Arielle: Good job to you. Thank you very much. Thank you. We did it.

Arielle: We did it. Um, this brings us to the, what we call the four principles to getting successfully published. And what's interesting about these four principles is that in the first edition of our book, there were three principles, but you will understand as we go through this why we had to add a fourth one.

Arielle: Um, so the, the very first principle. is research. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And research, like your pitch, follows you from the very beginning of the process through in past publications. So David was talking about the person who didn't know that someone had written a book like the book that they were writing. And the first part of research is being a reader in the category for which you want to write.

Arielle: And discovering. 

David: Where there's a hole in the market, where is there a book, something you love, and there's not a book about it. And that goes to all different genres of books. Whether you're writing a how to book or a thriller or a piece of historical fiction, if there's a book that's too much like the one that you're writing, it's going to have a tough chance of surviving.

David: People are looking for something that's familiar, and yet unique. 

Arielle: So the very first thing that you can do when you have a book idea is go to Watchung Booksellers, um, or your local independent bookstore and to study the shelf where your 

David: book 

Arielle: is going to 

David: live. This is so crucial. People don't understand this.

David: We say, well, what, uh, what, what genre is your book? A lot of people say, well, it's a thriller. and a cookbook and a memoir. So there's no such section. There's no 

Arielle: category in the bookstore that has, so you have to choose which category is going to be the primary category and you got to start buying and reading books in that category.

Arielle: And there are people who work in the bookstore. They, we refer to them as the last three feet of the publishing business. And what that means is, These are professionals that you have access to. You can't just call an agent or an editor at Simon Schuster on the phone and say, Hey, can you help me with my book?

Arielle: Or an online bookseller. Or, 

David: no, they're not going to answer your phone call. 

Arielle: No, 

David: they're not. They're not going to email you back and say, Oh, have you heard about this book? It sounds awfully similar to yours. And I read it and it's awesome. 

Arielle: They're just going to have a bot that says, if you rent this book, you may like this If you even can get to the bot.

Arielle: If you can get to the bot, yeah. So these wonderful, , booksellers who are at Watchung Booksellers have unbelievable knowledge. Yes, they do. And there's someone, let's say you're writing a rom com. There is someone there who loves rom coms and who can give you kind of a lay of the land. Yeah. There's just one important thing that you have to do in order to get great advice.

David (3): What's that? 

Arielle: Buy a book. 

David (3): Buy a book, buy a book. You got it. 

Arielle: Okay. Um, so. And librarians are also wonderful resources for understanding a category as well.

David: Librarians rock and when you go in the bookstore, try to go when the phone's not ringing off the hook and it's not a Saturday afternoon and it's crazy. Be respectful of these people's time and you, this is again where your pitch is going to come in. You're going to say I'm writing a book and you have one minute.

David: You can't be perseverating. You've got one minute to say what your book is and then What books do you have that are similar? 

Arielle: So, the next part of research is the querying process. And so often people send their queries to people who do not represent or edit books like their own. Um, and we actually recently hired, um, a new, a new member of our staff to do this kind of research because it's really hard, takes a lot of time, but the, the rewards are so rich if you do your research 

David: correctly.

David: Like if you research my lovely and talented wife for five seconds, you'll see somewhere that she doesn't really like fantasy books. And yet, every week when she was at the height of her agenting, somebody would send her a book. Oh, this is my 12 book series on the Moondogs of Narnia. You're going to love it.

David: She was not going to love it. You know where that pitch goes? 

Arielle: Bam! 

David (3): In the trash. 

Arielle: And David, um, has been working with a , thriller writer who has Dr. 

David: Gary 

Arielle: Brown Dr. Gary Brown, who's an eye surgeon by day Well, he was A 

David: retired eye One of the leading eye surgeons in America, but all he wanted to do was write thrillers Yes And there's a lot of people out there like that 

Arielle: So David worked with him for 10 years Yeah And, uh, he sent out On his own, how many queries?

David: Dozens, dozens, dozens, dozens. 

Arielle: And, and so, finally, you want to Yes, 

David: our, our, our new, partner, Ezra, uh, who's an amazing researcher. Um, he surgically Like, combed the world and found the perfect publisher. A thriller publisher, small, independent, uh, who specializes in medical thrillers. Like, somewhere out there, there is a publisher or an agent who's waiting for your book.

David: And we found that person, and after all these queries and all these years, I'd say, like, in ten days, we got an offer for publication. And then, in fact He got a three book deal. 

Arielle: Yep. 

David: Yeah. As a book doctor, that's one of the most glorious things. I was so, I was like dancing in front of 

the 

David: room. I was so happy.

David: We'd worked so hard on this book and it's, it's just so fun to, um, to hear the excitement in his voice. 

Arielle: And the research keeps going, you know, it involves things like, Your cover, you know, covers are so important in selling a book and doing your research to see which covers in your category have done really well.

Arielle: And, you know, sometimes one of the things that a great art director told us is that they go to the bookshelf and they look at What color are they not seeing in that part of the bookshelf where the author is going to end up? So little details like that. And then with publication in terms of media, the media landscape has changed so much, so difficult.

Arielle: So, you know, it's not like your book is just going to get reviewed automatically or anything. But finding the right journalist that you could pitch an idea to requires tremendous research. The 

David: cool website that features books that are just like yours. Finding uh, the influencer who loves your stuff. We were doing this series of interviews and I reached out to Margaret Atwood who is my all time hero.

David: And, you know, the first three or four times she didn't respond, but I kept sending her the most lovely, warm, passionate, uh, messages. And finally she said, sure, let's do an interview. And I was just so shocked. You'll be amazed if you do it right, the kinds of people who will respond to you. 

Arielle: And that is the perfect segue to principle number two, which is networking and networking, um, begins.

Arielle: When you have your book idea. So, again, lots of people think, Oh, I'll network once my book comes out. And that is way too late. So, networking is everything from joining a writer's group. And you want to tell your writer's group story? 

David: So, the first thing I do when I go, when I move and I've moved my whole life is I find a bookstore and a writer's group.

David: The first thing I did when I got to Montclair is I went right to Watchung Booksellers and said, Hello, how are you? And bought a couple of books. And we've, we, they're like part of our family. Watchung Booksellers. Which is why we're here right now. Yes it is. Doing our networking. Yeah. Even as we speak. So, I'm in San Francisco.

David: I joined a writer's group. And there was this guy. He was so awesome. Such a nice person and so handsome and so smart and he wrote these amazing stories And it turns out he was also a surgeon and an awesome dad and you're like if this guy catches a break He's going to be huge. Well, he did catch a break.

David: His name is Khaled Hosseini And he wrote a little book called The Kite Runner. And, uh, I went to the first event and it was just his family and me. Like, the book didn't come out of the gates, Gangbusters. But I was there and Khaled was so thankful and he signed my book. And then when our book, The Essential Guide to Getting Your Book Published, came out, I said, Khaled, you know what?

David: We'd be honored if you would write us a little blurb for the front cover. Well, guess what's on the front cover of The Essential Guide to Getting Your Book Published. 

Arielle: Yep. And that was from just, I mean, David loved being in this writing group so much. It fed his soul. Yes. So networking for a lot of writers who are shy and uncomfortable.

Arielle: Um, not natural networkers, it can feel like something that's hard, but it doesn't have to be. And networking these days can happen in your pajamas by yourself. With bad hair. With bad hair, because you can connect to people, of course, online. 

David: I would like to say that most, a lot of people don't understand what marketing is.

David: They think it means, hey, buy my book, buy my book, buy my book. That's not what marketing is. Touting yourself. I can't brag about myself. You should not be bragging about yourself. You should start by doing nice things for other people. Find writers you love who are writing in the same category. Like their books.

David: Buy their books. Put reviews up on, uh, online everywhere. Tell other people about their book. Um, your job is to, uh, lift other people up. And eventually, I guarantee, they're going to start lifting you up. 

Arielle: Absolutely. Okay, so number three. 

David: This is going to come as a shock. 

Arielle: Yeah, it is. Yeah. 

David: Writing. 

Arielle: You have to write.

Arielle: You gotta write. If you want to write a book. 

David: I was at a conference and some guy said, Oh, I've got an amazing book. It's going to be such a huge bestseller. And, you know, in my mind, I'm like, yeah, okay. All right. Whatever. But I'm like, Oh, please tell me your book idea. And it was an amazing book idea. Like, yeah, I'm like, this could really be a huge book.

David: I said, just send me a copy of it. And he's like, well, I haven't actually written anything. So 

Arielle: Actually, one thing that I think about when you say that is that we've done a lot of pitchupaloozas where the person is one. Who has, has pitched an amazing book and they were incredible and we were so excited and afterwards we, you know, ask them where they are in their book and either they're just at the beginning or at their middle or they could even be, say they have a finished book, but they want to do a little more on it and then we don't hear from them again.

David: And 

Arielle: I think so many people. Steam in the writing process. So finding whatever it is that can help move you along. And sometimes you have to take a break from your book and you have to write something else. And our favorite story about this is, um, our friend Tamim Ansari had been writing a memoir Um, about growing up in Afghanistan's father is an Afghan.

Arielle: And, when he pitched the book to his agent, this was. Pre 9 11, the agent didn't even know where Afghanistan was. He thought it was 

David: a dog of some kind. Yeah, 

Arielle: yeah. , and, um, had no interest in the book whatsoever. So Tamim started working on a novel. Instead, he put that proposal away. And then 9 11 happened.

David: So he's sitting in his room and he hears somebody on talk radio saying, Oh, we should bomb them back to the Stone Ages, these Afghanistan people. And he was so incensed and just filled with anger that he wrote this beautiful, impassioned piece about you don't understand, there are already An email, not a piece.

David: No, not a piece. An email, you're right, about how they're already back in the Stone Ages, you don't understand the Taliban, it's like the Nazis. He just, and he sent it, I got, was one of the first people to get it. He only sent it to 12 people. That email went around the world five times in 24 hours. 

Arielle: Five times?

Arielle: Oh, around the world? World. 

David: Yes, 

Arielle: yes. I got it five times. Yeah, and he ended up going on Oprah, on ABC News. PBS. Everything. I mean, and he ended up, um, having a huge auction. Well, his agent 

David: then said, Do you have any, we gotta have a book. Do you have a book about this? He's like, dude, I, I wrote this book. I gave it to you years ago.

Arielle: So he was ready. 

David: Yes, 

Arielle: he was ready. And, , that book sold in a huge auction and has sold , now hundreds of thousands of copies, and Tameem's career took off from there just because of that email. So writing doesn't only have to be slogging through your book. It can be writing about things. that you're really passionate about, that you can help other people understand, love, get excited about, whatever it is.

Arielle: And, and, you know, 

David: writing, having written all these books, it just takes a long time. It's just so labor intensive. And, and we all have lives, you know? How do, how do you, I find the time. I hear this all the time from people. Well, I'll go back to Khaled. He's a surgeon, okay? He got up at four o'clock in the morning, He had his coffee for 15 minutes, and then he wrote for two hours, and then he went and was a surgeon, came home, hung out with his kids, passed out.

David: You have to organize your life so that you have, carve out time for yourself. 

Arielle: And Irma Bombeck famously curved 

David: out, 

Arielle: out 15 minute increments and that was all. At the 

David: kitchen table with her typewriter as she's making her the spaghetti for dinner. She 

Arielle: had a little alcove in the kitchen with the typewriter there.

Arielle: Busy lives don't mean that you can't write a book. And also, writing 

David: is not just writing, it's also thinking. Exactly. It's thinking about your characters. What I do is, when I finish a scene, I imagine what the next scene is going to be, before I shut everything down. And then, before I come back to my book, in the course of my day, when I find myself thinking about, um, You know, things that I have no control over, like, why doesn't God love me more?

David: I change the subject, and I think about my book. I visualize the scene. How does it start? What does it smell like? Are they in a kitchen? What, what, what action is going on? What do these characters both desperately want that they can't have in the, in the scene? How do they not say? what they want. How is the interaction go?

David: How does it build? Where's the scene going in the big picture of the book? I try to come up with the first line. And so that when I sit down at my computer, it's not just a blank page. I've got a whole thing in my head and I've got the first line and boom, it, uh, it, it becomes so much easier once I have visualized the whole thing.

Arielle: So that gets us to the fourth and final principle, which originally was not there, But what became so clear was glaringly missing. Perhaps the most important of all I'm gonna say 100%. I 

David: agree with 

David (3): you. 

Arielle: So, with that, number four is 

David: Perseverance. 

Arielle: Perseverance. And there are two kinds 

David: of perseverance. There is 

Arielle: Stupid perseverance.

Arielle: And there's 

David: smart perseverance. 

Arielle: And, and Stupid Perseverance is when, for example, you have a query letter that you're sending out and you send it out to 20 agents or editors and you don't hear anything back at all. And then you send 20 more of the exact same letters out and you do this 150 times. 

David: We literally have people say to us, well, I've sent the same query out 150 times.

David: I don't know what to do. I guess I'll just send it out 150 more 

Arielle: times. Exactly. So if you have that kind of persistence, it's going to be a really long haul and it's a long haul anyway. 

David (2): Yes, you make the long haul longer. 

Arielle: Now, if you are constantly adjusting to the feedback or lack thereof, that's going to really change and your perseverance is going to carry you through.

David: Also, there's an interesting to develop your pitch that requires perseverance. From the moment you decide, Oh, this is the book I'm going to write. Um, whenever someone asks you, So, what are you up to? You say, I'm writing a book. And when they ask, Oh, what's it about? You have one minute to tell them what your book is about, and you'll see there's some parts of your pitch that make people spark up, and those are the parts you focus on, and the parts where they sort of drift away, those are the parts that you remove.

David: And to do this over and over and over again, persevere in perfecting your pitch, so that by the time you get to an agent, you've already done your pitch hundreds of times. 

Arielle: So David had a book idea, , that he told me, and Um, and I said, that book will never sell and David, , enjoys having people say that kind of thing to him because then he becomes ultra determined 

David: to sell a book.

Arielle: So. He, he, he went out and he started pitching the book. 

David: Yeah, so, uh, I, I was something, it was a passion project. It wasn't, it wasn't a book for money. It was something that was near and dear to my heart. So, um, and I was already a best selling author. So I started, you know, I wrote my pitch. I, I, I, I I started at the top of the food chain with editors and agents at the very top of the game.

David: You know, HarperCollins, all these people, nothing. Then I went to university presses. I found a university press that was perfect for the book. No. No, no, no. I went all the way down to the food chain until I got to Bob's Publishing Company in this, uh, it's run by Bob and he lives in his mom's basement. When you call him, he says, Hi, I'm Bob.

David: Can I publish your book? Bob refused to publish my book. But every time I got turned down, I would say, what could make the book better? And not everybody responded, of course, but some people said, well, the titles. Yeah, I don't know. So I've got a better title. Oh, if you had a star from this world that you're, you're, you're, It's an anthology of writing from this strange little world.

David: If you had a couple stars from that world, that would help a lot. And every time someone gave me a suggestion, I implemented it. And I made this thing better and tighter and tighter and better. And I showed it to everybody that I knew. And I asked everybody, Oh, hey, do you know anybody who might like this?

David: Finally, someone said, Yeah, you should contact this guy, Richard Nash. So, man, this was a year later. 112. People turned this book down. Publishing professionals said this book has no value. Well, number 113, I would say, I don't know, 48 hours after I sent the email in, he's like, wow, this seems like something that should be on our list.

David: A week later, I had a book deal. And this was a tiny publisher, but super well respected indie publisher, and that book ended up on the front cover of the Sunday New York Times Book Review. You'd think I would get tired of saying that, but do I? No, 

Arielle: never. And, and I just want to say that so much of that time was hearing nothing.

Arielle: Yes, yes. And, and 99 percent of people would have given up very early in the process because the rejections were resounding. And, and 

David: everybody has to figure out their own way of dealing with rejection. Mine, because of the way I was raised, is rage. I just am infuriated. I'm going to show you. I keep a list of everyone who's turned the book down.

David: And then when it gets published, I write them all this very sweet letter. Thank you so much for rejecting me. It really fueled me. And I just want to say how appreciative I am of you rejecting this book that's going out into the world. Thank you so much. 

Arielle: And perseverance, Is a core part of, our story, David and my story of our business and, I think it's a, it's a good story to, um, 

David: wrap her up.

Arielle: Yeah. 

David: So I'm living in Venice Beach. I don't know anyone in publishing. Uh, my therapist said, uh, you should write a story, a book about, about your, your life because it's so weird. So I'm like, okay, that's what I'm going to do. So I wrote the book. I worked super hard on it. And then. I started asking everybody.

David: I woke up and down the boardwalk at Venice Beach. Would you like to read my book? And eventually, and I asked everybody, eventually somebody said, Oh, uh, yes, um, I know somebody who is a literary agent. Um, would you like me to, uh, Well, honestly, she didn't really want to make the introduction. I said, would you please?

David: And she did. Introduced me to an agent, a New York agent. So I called the agent, because that's what I do well. And, um, they were expecting my call. And we talked, and it all went super well. And I sent the manuscript. And this was even before the internet. So I had to print it out and send it. Now, this is an important thing.

David: Follow up. We didn't even talk about follow up. Follow up is part of perseverance. I followed up. A week later, I called and said, Oh, I just want to make sure you got the book. And the agent said, uh, I got the book, but I've already lost it. I'm like, Oh, I didn't say that out loud, but that's what I was thinking.

David: I'm like, okay, I will send the book again, which I did followed up, got the book. So a month later I called back and said, Oh, I didn't even mention the book. They'd said something about, you know, some pair of shoes they'd gotten or whatever, the hell are those shoes working out for you? Uh, very sweet. I didn't, like I said, didn't even mention the book.

David: The next month. Called again. Had a very brief and very cordial and lovely conversation. Nine months, once a month, I call this agent. We could have had a baby in the time that it took for this agent. And it's a tiny little book. It's not even a big book. So finally, on the ninth time, the agent said, Oh, and I found out it was at the bottom of the pile.

David: And every time I'd call, The agent would feel guilty and it would rise up a little bit in the pecking order of books to read. So finally I was near the top now, and the agent said, Look, I feel so bad about this. I haven't read the book, but You're not coming to New York over the holidays, are you? And I said, Well, as a matter of fact, I am.

David: I was not coming to New York. I lived in Venice. I didn't have any money. So I said, Yeah, I'm definitely coming to New York. They said, Oh, great. I'll take you out to lunch and I will have read your book and we'll discuss it. So, I hung up the phone. I had to get a brand new credit card because I was all tapped out.

David: So I managed to finagle my way to New York City and this agent, and by the way, if an agent ever invites you to lunch, they have to pay. Just be very clear about this. So we had a lovely lunch, and they gave me these incredible notes on the book and It was it was just a fantastic experience Talking with this agent talking about the book, but we just hit it off and like Unbelievably we hit it off.

David: So I said well You know, maybe we could meet again to talk about the book and whatever. She said yes, and um, that agent is now sitting across from me and is my wife and the mother of my child. 

Arielle: Perseverance pays off. 

David: Perseverance pays off big time. 

Arielle: So I do want, I know we said that was going to be the last thing, but there's one other thing that I want us to talk about, which is that, um, the, this whole journey and The picture paloozas that, that we've now done all over the country from that very first one people said you should make a television show out of it.

Arielle: And for years, um, David has been like 

David: we did it at the Strand, 

Arielle: someone came up and said, Oh, dude, this should be a TV show. And I'm like, yes, it 

David: should. 

Arielle: So David, for years, was like, We should do a TV show. We should do a TV show. And, um, as you can see in this relationship, he's the one who, who, who perseveres.

Arielle: And I'm the one who says, That's never going to work. But finally, Finally, we, we found, um, a, a perfect partner. Well, I'll say 

David: first of all, when we pitched to TV people, and I would say it's America's Next Great, they'd be interested, and I would say author, and they would start backing away. This is a book about writing?

David: Writers, are you mad, sir? This, this is television. That'll never work. 

Arielle: Yeah. So first we, we teamed up with our good friend Grant Faulkner, who is head of National Novel Writing Month. And a wonderful, um, writer himself. Yes, he is. And then Um, we, um, partnered with, uh, Newbery Award winning and Emmy Award winning Kwame Alexander.

Arielle: The man, the 

David: myth, the legend. 

Arielle: Who is the co creator of the show with us and the host. Yes. Um, and we started to amass a And we did a proof of concept in, in Newark. 

David: A video which sort of shows what the thing is. 

Arielle: Yeah, yeah, which was incredible. And writers, we got all, this was, this proof of concept was never going to show on TV.

Arielle: And we made it 

David: clear to everyone. Everyone. 

Arielle: But we got almost a thousand entries of people wanting to fly from every state to Newark to be part of this proof of concept. So we knew, we were like, okay, this is just obvious, this is going to happen. So, um, Things are, things are 

David: percolating. Talk about perseverance.

David: We have had so many people say, Oh, I love this show. Let's do it. We're going to do this show. One after another. Streamers, networks, everybody. So much 

Arielle: waiting. But I will 

David: also say, everyone And eventually they all, and they all fell apart for some strange reason. But every single person that we got involved with, we learned something about our show.

David: Yes. This was Smart Perseverance and we changed it to make it better. 

Arielle: Yep. Yep. So this is a mission driven reality show, who's been Purpose, like the Pitch a paloozas, is to, , bring different voices to the publishing table. We're at a point in time right now where the largest publishers are mega, mega conglomerates.

Arielle: It's owned by major corporations and where there's um, less and less um, interest slash ability to publish new authors and we hope that by having a television show we're able to really give a platform to people that wouldn't otherwise have it. So we'll keep everyone updated on that and we, we will 

David: say a teaser that we have a streamer Who wants to do the show and we are right at the finish line.

Arielle: Yeah, so and Most importantly we want to thank Watchung 

David: Booksellers 

Arielle: for Hosting this podcast. And we've 

David: done, I don't know, ten 50 blueses. We found an amazing author at one of our last ones that we did in conjunction with Watchung Booksellers. 

Arielle: Famously, , Mr.

Arielle: Gill, one of , the most incredible middle school teachers in Montclair, New Jersey, who taught for 53 years. His picture book, , will be coming out in 2025. as a result of a pitchpalooza that happened with Watchung Booksellers and the Montclair Literary Festival. So Watchung Booksellers is our daughter's favorite place in the world.

Arielle: It's her comfort zone. If she's feeling sad, we walk to the bookstore. So that's how special it is to us. 

David (3): And she worked there. 

Arielle: So it's in our, it's 

David (3): in our, they are a part of our family. 

Arielle: They you.

Marni: Thank you, David and Arielle, for being a part of the podcast. Listeners, you can find any of the books they mentioned in our show notes or at watchungbooksellers.

Marni: com. 

Kathryn: Listeners, , we have a few more events this fall before the holiday season kicks in. Tomorrow, Wednesday, November 20th, we welcome Nancy Arnie P. Sunier with Henry Neff to share Nancy's gift book, Mouskine's 12 Days of Christmas. 

Marni: And on Thursday, November 21st, we're partnering with AAPI New Jersey and OCA New Jersey to welcome katie G. Salisbury, author of Not Your China Doll, a biography of film star Anna May Wong.

Marni: That same night, the Montclair Literary Festival welcomes Rachel Kushner to discuss her latest book, Creation Lake. 

Kathryn: You can find out details and get tickets for all of our events in our newsletter, show notes, or at WatchungBookSellers. com.