Episode 21: Book Buying and Selling

In this episode of the Watchung Booksellers, owner Maddie Ciliotta-Young talks with W. W. Norton sales rep Ashanti White-Wallace about selling books to indies. 

Maddie Ciliotta-Young is the owner and operator of Watchung Booksellers in Montclair, NJ. Maddie grew up in Montclair and at the bookstore with her mom, Margot. After college she was a teacher and principal for over a decade at a New York City public high school. As a school administrator, Maddie had a focus on equity for underserved schools and a passion for teaching literacy. She joined the Watchung Booksellers team in 2022 and when she’s not in the store she can be found enjoying Montclair’s restaurants with her husband or on the soccer field cheering on her kids.

Ashanti White-Wallace has been the New York City & tristate area sales rep for W. W. Norton, Inc. since January 2020. Originally from a small mountain town, she graduated with distinction from the University of Colorado at Boulder where she majored in English, studio arts, and art history. She found her passion for slinging books at the Boulder Book Store in 2008. After attending the Columbia Publishing Course in 2014, she managed inventory for WORD in Greenpoint, Brooklyn and Jersey City, NJ, and in 2018 for the Whitney Museum of American Art. Ashanti runs @JCQueerBookClub in Jersey City.

Resources:
Boulder Book Store
WORD
The Lit. Bar
Liz's Book Bar
Book Club

Books:
A full list of the books and authors mentioned in this episode is available here.

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The Watchung Booksellers Podcast is produced by Kathryn Counsell and Marni Jessup and is recorded at Silver Stream Studio in Montclair, NJ.

The show is edited by Kathryn Counsell and Bree Testa. Special thanks to Timmy Kellenyi and Derek Mattheiss.

Original music is composed and performed by Violet Mujica.

Art & design and social media by Evelyn Moulton. Research and show notes by Caroline Shurtleff.

Thanks to all the staff at Watchung Booksellers and The Kids’ Room!

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Transcript

 Welcome back to the Watchung Booksellers Podcast, where we bring you conversations from our bookstore's rich community of book professionals who talk about a different aspect of the book world. And if you're new to our podcast, thanks for joining us. I'm Marni, and I'm here with my co producer, Kathryn.

Hey, Kathryn. How are you? I'm good. How you doing, Marni? Great. What are you reading? Well, I just picked up Margo's Got Money Troubles by Rufy Thorpe. And, uh, it's about a young woman who gets pregnant by her, , community college professor, and she decides to have the baby, and she is trying to make ends meet, and so she starts Um, and it's kind of funny because I didn't know what that was.

And my kids got to tell me, and so that made for an interesting conversation. What about you? What are you reading? Uh, I just actually got an ARC of The Original Daughter. It's a debut novel by, uh, Jemima Way. It comes out next year. I believe it's May of 2025. By Doubleday Books.

, and it's contemporary fiction. I'm really looking forward to reading it. Very cool. Very cool. Uh, so that is a nice segue into discussing how we get the books we get in our bookstore. Um, you know, you found an ARC, which is an advanced reader's copy. , but how did that ARC show up?

And it showed up because we have amazing sales reps who come to our store and meet with us and tell us what is coming up, from the publishing end, and then we get to buy what we like, and then we sell it on through to everyone else. So today we are talking with, Maddie, our store owner, and Ashanti White Wallace, , who sells us titles from Norton. Yeah,

Ashanti White Wallace has been the New York City and Tri State Area Sales Rep for WW Norton Inc. since January 2020. . Originally from a small mountain town, she graduated with distinction from the University of Colorado at Boulder, where she majored in English, studio arts, and art history. She found her passion for slinging books at Boulder Bookstore in 2008. After attending the Columbia publishing course , She managed inventory for the Whitney Museum of American Art and Word in Greenpoint, Brooklyn, and Jersey City, New Jersey. , Ashanti runs At J. C. Queer Book Club in Jersey City. Yeah, and Maddy Siliata Young is the owner and operator of Watchung Booksellers in Montclair, New Jersey. Maddy grew up in Montclair and at the bookstore with her mom, Margo. After college, she was a teacher and principal for over a decade at a New York City public high school.

As a school administrator, Maddy had a focus on equity for underserved schools and a passion for teaching literacy. She joined the Watchung Quicksellers team in 2022. And when she's not in the store, she can be found enjoying Montclair's restaurants with her husband or on the soccer field cheering on her kids.

Enjoy the conversation, and we'll be back after to fill you in on what's coming up in the store.

 All right. Well, hi Ashanti. Hi Marni. I'm Marni. I am the owner operator of Watchung Booksellers, and Ashanti, if you want to introduce yourself and your role.

Yeah, uh, I am the New York City and Tri State Area Sales Rep for WW Norton, and I have been since January 2020, which we will get into. Uh huh. Yeah. What that looks like. Very interesting time to transition into publishing, um, but I was a bookseller for many years before that, like about 15 years before that.

Yeah, and where you were in, were you in Denver? What store were you at? Yeah, I started at Boulder Bookstore in Boulder, Colorado, uh, and then got Headhunted eventually, actually, by, uh, Christine Onorati, whom I am forever grateful to for literally changing my life by getting me out on the east coast. Um, and I was there doing inventory management, um, backlist buying, and then eventually GMing, um, for both stores in Brooklyn and Jersey City.

I spent a couple of years at the Whitney Museum also doing the same thing, inventory management. Um, which museum buying is really interesting. It's very different than bookstore buying. It's like much closer to like an event model of buying because you're buying for a specific time period that will, yeah.

Like for the exhibit, switch over and then you just, yeah. Move on to the other. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you have quite the background. So you've been on the, the buying side as a bookseller. Yes. And then also now you're on the selling side. Yes. So how did you transition? to Norton and why did you decide then to do that?

Like, it's just a little bit of a switch. I, like, I love book selling. I love everything about book selling. It is also retail, so it can be difficult on your body and your mind after a certain period of time. time point. Um, and I just felt like it was time for me to transition into something that I had been interested in for a really long time.

Um, actually I did one of the publishing programs. I did the Columbia Publishing course, um, in 2013, formerly the Radcliffe Publishing course. Um, and I actually have one in Oxford now. Um, And, you know, I would encourage any booksellers who are interested in that to, like, reach out and talk to Shae Earhart, who is amazing.

She is, like, so well connected in the community, but also extremely gracious. And, um, I got pretty close to a full ride to go. Oh, great. Because of my book selling background like just like grants and things available. Yeah, they have scholarships available Which I don't think a lot of people know about Columbia publishing courses that they do have scholarships available It's not something I would have been able to do on my own and that was really key to be able to Come out here and it was actually Through making connections with other classmates that I learned about the job at Word in the first place.

And Christine liked to hire people from other, um, you know, well regarded indies in the industry. Right, yeah. But I think it worked out very well for both of us for, you know, uh, a good while.

 But yeah, I had been an assistant buyer at the Boulder bookstore for like two years at that point. Um, and I had done basically every role except for events. Handling. Um, I was like, A consistent, like, key holder, I would close the store every, like, Friday and Saturday night, kick drunk people out, and like, Sorry, no more books.

Yeah, exactly, like, you guys are buying books anywhere. Don't have to go home, but you gotta get out of here. Yeah, you just, you have to leave now. I, I need to go home and study, thank you. Which people wouldn't think happen at bookstores, but like in those city bookstores that are open late, I'm sure, I mean, people just hang out.

People do just hang out in a bookstore? Yeah, yeah, and we were on a walking mall, So it was like, you know, there's many pubs across the street. Yep, exactly. Well now they have bookstores, like bar bookstores, right? There's like the, the one in, um, where is it in the Bronx? Is it the Lit Bar? The Lit Bar. And, uh, Liz's Book Bar just opened in, um, Brooklyn.

Um, and there's also Book Club Bar. Oh yes. Yeah. That one. Yes. That's in, with a lot of my like Lower East Side. Yes. That's the one downtown. Yeah. Stores. So it's a, it's a thing to be drunk in a bookstore. Yeah. That's a normal thing. And what did you, so like Norton is really, to me, the like very intellectual Publisher, right?

Like, there's more interesting titles. There's more, um More unique topics, and it's not, you know, like they're obviously they're bestsellers at Norton But it's not just like pumping out New York Times list books. It's like Feels very intentional the types of books that are published by WD, and it's a smaller.

It's a smaller publisher than yeah The cool thing about Norton that not everyone knows is that Employee owned. We're the only like, large employee owned independent publisher in the country. I did not know that. Um, yeah, 

After you work there a certain number of years you can start start buying stock in the company Yeah, which is really great and a lot of people do that and it's not publicly traded So it really is a very like special close held thing. And I think that really helps direct some of our publishing Program, too, because, The thing that I hear most consistently from my buyers is that there isn't anything that is, , not a lasting book of quality on the list.

And to people outside of the industry, I describe it as like, we Published the prize winners. Like, we have a lot of Pulitzer National Book Awards. Um, a lot of our books get a lot of prizes. So, um, it is a very prestigious house. Yes. Uh, we just celebrated our 100th anniversary too. Yeah. Yeah, and I just like, honestly, I was always kind of, uh, a nerd about, like, the industry specifically.

And when I got into it and started to see, like, how so many publishers, like, Do things in this really cattywampus way. That's, I think, when I decided to really make the transition from book selling to publishing. Yeah, of course my arrogance. I thought I could do it better. Yeah, so like did you look exclusively at Norton?

Were you like, I'm gonna work there. This is where I belong or did you kind of You know, have interest in other publishing houses. Honestly, no, because I, um, am a bit of a weird reader. Uh, I'm the horror reader in our sales group. Which I want to get to, yeah, because you always have that.

Such good insights into like some of the weirdest books, I'm like, tell me about this. Yes. Yeah, I love, I'm drawn to the weird books. Um, I, uh, I triple majored in college, um, which actually was very useful for, um, publishing, actually, because it is kind of just like being in college all the time, and just, um, Reading, you know, weird, random stuff.

Um, one of my majors was art history, so that also really helps with our art lists. Um, you know, we distribute Thames Hudson and Abbeville, which are really huge art publishers. Um, and we'll soon have Yale and Harvard in the spring. Yeah, with their painting school is, you know, a really important, um, art publisher.

They do a lot of museum co pubs. So it's actually Yes, and then that, yeah, there's a museum connection there. Yes, yes, yes, so it all kind of melds together in that way. Yeah, and I mean, you know, book, a book has such a long life before it even gets to a reader, right? Yeah. You know, your typical customer reader.

Um, and I, you know, book selling is not the sexiest, like you said, it's retail, right? Just like, it's just a lot of like selling books, saying good morning, yeah, saying good morning, moving boxes from one place to another. Um, but I find that like the funnest part is the buying, like it's shopping to me. I'm like, Oh my God, I have to go shopping.

Um, and you also get to be a shopper or a personal shopper for your customers. You're not just shopping for yourself for your own bookshelf. But, um, By the time it even gets to me, as a buyer at a bookstore, it's already, like, I feel like the book has had months and months of life. Yeah. You know, um, so, like, where do you start as the sales rep?

So it's like, I'm an author. I'm writing a book. I get an agent who gets me a contract with Norton. Mm. And then what? Then where does it go? Yeah, um, well I just want to pause very briefly and say that I have so much admiration for bookstore owners because I have a little bit of an insight into how difficult it is and um, also especially like the buying process.

It's not an easy process. And, you know, our list is usually about 300, now going to be about 450 books a season. Right. Which is three times a year. Right. And our list is not even the largest out of a lot of the lists. No, it's actually very manageable. I find, like, we meet monthly, but I, you know, there's, yeah, there's some that come through that are 1, 200 books.

And if you do, I do a lot of the kids buying. For certain publishers, like with you, I do kids and adult buying. And then it's like two catalogs that are 1, 100 to 1, 200 books per season. Um, so it's a lot, like there's a lot out there and there's also a lot that like don't make it to a publisher, right?

There's a lot of books that are hybrid or self published. Um, so there's just like so much content. Even in the book world, like, we're not even talking about the internet, but just like, there's so much out there. Just for books published, yeah, there is an insane amount of content to sift through. And I actually do have a lot of buyers who tell me that my insight is invaluable, and of course that's like a nice ego boost.

But like, they do need someone who is an expert on the list, on their publisher's list, to say, okay, these are the things that are going to work. For your store specifically too. Yep, because not every book is gonna work for every store. No, that's just the reality of it and that's an okay thing, but to go back to how a book starts, yeah, um, so once they have the contract that's usually after the product is like It can be as much as a full manuscript, it can be as little as, like, here's a 40 page proof of what I'm going to do.

Interesting. Okay. Um, and it really depends on, like, the author, the author's track history, if they've published anything before, you know. That really happens with more, I think, more established, but like It also just depends on the author's style. Like I'm reading something right now, um, for April, 2025. Um, it's Russell Shorto.

Uh, it is going to be awesome because it's about the like Dutch colonial history of New York City. Um, it's going to be a really cool book. Uh, he had the full manuscript in January of this year. Oh, wow. He is, because he's written so many books and is like, you know, uh, you know, established at this, um, I think it's, you know, Easier for him to have this full product and say, here's my full product.

It's also a continuation of research that he's been doing for decades. So it's like, yeah, you know, he's, and he knows how to put it together. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But then it goes to an editor, right? I mean, like, and sometimes, like you're brought it, you must be brought in sometimes to because it's like books, you know, yes, it is for the art of it.

Right. Um, yeah. But also books have to be sellable. They do. Right? And so like, where does that check come in? Honestly, sometimes as early as, we're getting this proposal from this agent, do you think this would work for your market? Especially if it's like a New York centric book. Right. If it's not going to sell in the New York stores, is this, like, worth it?

Then it's not going to sell. And that's not being, you know, New Yorkist about it. Which we can be a little bit. We could be, but like that's the same thing like if, you know, uh, there was a Detroit, um, author and they would tap my colleague, uh, Dave Malman and be like, you know, is this for the stores up there?

Um, or like, is this going to sell it? They're Chicago, but some co op, you know? Um, it's, it's just really the same thing. Like, is it going to sell at your big bellwether stores? If not, then, yeah. Then we have to, yeah. Although usually when they bring a proposal to my attention, they are seriously considering it.

So it's not like, Yeah. Cause at this point then you're bringing multiple eyes are on this book. Right. People are spending time on it. So you might check in with a book while it's with a, you know, with an agent or an editor before it's even in contract. And then the editor kind of starts to go through it with the author back and forth.

And like, what interests me the most is like, what happens at the table? Okay. So now you're, you're reading what? April, 2025 books. Yeah. And honestly, I'm a little bit behind. I should be reading summer 2025 stuff already. Okay. Yeah. So like that would be your next big sales meeting is like the summer catalog.

Yes. And we're meeting for that end of October. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, so you're way ahead of even where we are. Yeah, so like when a book, honestly, hits the shelves, sometimes it's, uh, been, you know, I've already sold it months in advance of it hitting the shelves and, uh, I kind of forget about its existence until we start to get, like, Good publicity for it or whatever, and then I'm like, oh yeah, that book, uh, yeah, I love that book.

The review comes out like a week, you know, a week before the book is published, but you, you read it or dealt with it 16 months prior. Yes, and I'm sure booksellers know this too, but like when something gets put on an awards list, it's just like, forget about it. Like, you can't get it. You better hope that you had it before it gets on the awards list.

Any New York Times list. Yes. At all. I mean, for us anyway, we're like big, big New York Times list readers. Yeah. So you have to do like a lot of forecasting. And that's also where your rep comes into play with helping you do that kind of forecasting. Um, yeah. And so like you can't read everything. So you're at a table with like how many reps are really like, is the whole.

country represented at the table when you get like, are all the reps across the U. S. for Norton meeting together? Or are you just kind of like, Oh yeah, so like, um, we have different sales channels. So I am in the independent bookstore sales channel. Um, and you know, we do not serve the Evil A. We do not serve, um, BNN.

We do not serve like the Newport, Uh, you know, Hudson News Stores. Um, those are their own sales channel. We know all those people and we're friendly with them. Um, those are whole separate reps for those types of, yeah. Yeah, they're entirely separate reps. Um, honestly, the Norton sales team is also kind of small.

Uh, we have, I think, including me, eight right now. Oh, yeah. Um, and, uh, so We all cover multiple states. Right, yeah. Um, my territory is Pretty large. Um, uh, but yeah, everyone is, uh, we all meet once a week. Like, oh yeah, that's often. Um, we like each other. Yeah, that's nice. Well, when there's eight of you, that's nice.

Yeah. So we like, we do a, a meeting over video chat. Um, I don't want to, you know, Buzz market, the video chat service, but we meet over video chat, um, once a week and just like discuss things that are going on or upcoming or, you know, things are always changing too. Um, in, you know, not just in publicity, but like certain things will happen that you need to be like proactive in what you're going to do about them.

So like those meetings are invaluable. Like March, 2020. What was that meeting like? Right because I heard from a lot I didn't come into book selling until after that I was still running a school at that point Uh huh, and I heard that there were all of these lags kind of like there was just this one season When I came on in 2022, where people were still feeling the effects of not having manuscripts coming through or not being able to even physically print anything because of all of the, you know, supply chain issue.

I'd like, wish I would never say the word supply chain ever again. Yeah, that was. Um, and then it kind of was like there was just like this little gap where people were like there should be more coming out this season But there's not like we're still feeling the effect So like yeah, it's like how, how are decisions made then about what goes out?

And there were so many good books that came out in 2020 that just like had no chance, like no chance whatsoever Like bookstores weren't even open. Right. Be able to allow people to browse, uh, you know, for a good part of the year. But like the really weird thing was we had a sales conference end of February 2020.

Wow. Yeah. Um, and you know, we're in New York, uh, they fly all the sales reps out for conference. Yeah. And, like theThird or fourth day they start to like sanitize the microphones, right? Yeah, that was like that was already Okay. Okay. This is uh, this is gonna be a more serious thing than we think it is and It dramatically changed the way the sales reps do our jobs.

Because like, I have a coworker who, um, his territory is so large he was only home, like, I don't know, two, three weeks out of the season. Wow. The rest of the time he was on the road, traveling and, um, you know, selling the list in person.

Right, yeah. Um, which is how it had been done, you know, essentially, Since the Great Depression. Yeah, like traveling salespeople. Yes. Yeah. Which I still do some of. And we all still do some of. But it is much less of a huge part of our job than it was before. And we have been able to move our workload in more efficient ways.

You know, a lot of the time we had what our, um, sales director, Stephen Pace, calls, uh, windshield time. And he wanted to get us doing something other than windshield time, because it's not useful for anyone. It's not useful for the person. Traveling, um, it's not useful for the booksellers, it's not giving them anything extra, um, and I actually have some accounts now where like, I'll never meet a rep in person again, this is just so much easier to go through the list that way, and you know what, that's fine with me because my whole job is making things easier for my accounts because I know I'm How difficult their job is.

So any way anyone wants to do it, honestly, I'm like, I'm, I'm flexible. I can't even believe that this is a job sometimes that I'm expected to go and just do like mini book reports with people. Right, exactly. Yeah, exactly. We just talk on the phone and you give me a book report. Yeah. And yeah. And it's, yeah, the calls are really flexible for me, too, because the amount of times that I have to, like, cancel, and I always feel bad if somebody's, like, coming out for something.

Yeah. And I'm like, oh my god, I can't do it. It's much easier to reschedule when we have, like, a regular meeting, where we know we're going to talk to each other eventually, and, you know. Sometimes life happens, and that's fine. Exactly, yeah. Yeah, exactly. It works. Yeah, and so, do you have more time to read then?

Like, what is your, what's your new windshield time? Um, I do have more time to read. Monthly selling does take a lot of, and it's an innovation that only we're doing. Right, yeah. Um, as far as uh, the publishing houses. Um, and I think it is because our list is so nimble that we're able to do this. Um, but, um, it really helps a lot and it helps with something that I'm especially, uh, fond of, which is backlist buying.

I love backlist. Yeah. And it's like, You cannot overemphasize the long tail economics of a book, um, which of course, uh, if anyone hasn't read Long Tail, uh, please read The Long Tail. It is, uh, so important. Um, I actually have like a book list that I recommend for people starting bookstores. Oh, that's helpful.

Why we shop. Oh, interesting. Okay, I'm gonna write this down. The Long Tail. Uh, Mathematics for Bookselling, which is a little bit out of date now because it was written pre Adelweiss and ordering software, but it explains turns and returns and how you should think about, you know, Your inventory flow in a really smart way.

And, um, this is a surprising one, but bookselling for dummies. Yes. Uh, everything for dummies is great. Yeah, it really is. Actually. Um, a lot of people that I've worked with are interviewed for that book. So it's just leading industry voices. Yeah, talking about it. Um, and you know, of course other econ books are useful, but like, yes, yeah.

But if you want to just start a bookstore, like, I feel like that will give you such a good, just round picture of the industry. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I mean, so we meet monthly and so now we're buying, like, I'm, I'm bought up with Norton through what, October, right? So. Our next meeting is going to be November December books.

Um, I think we did November December books actually, so January. So right now, yeah, the next catalog we'll go through is January February. And so, so some of the other publishers that I meet with, um, gosh, I think also January, I think I'm starting to meet now and, but their catalogs then are January I think maybe May or like it's like all spring and it's those 1, 200 books, book catalogs that we're talking about.

Yeah, and so it's like the catalog come, you know, now it's an electronic through Edelweiss. And so it comes to me With all of the books ever that are coming out in that time span. And then I really have to rely on you guys. I mean, you're able to make suggestions electronically and you can put in, well, I think this would, you know, this would work.

I think you should definitely get at least six of this or whatever, you know, but I do really rely on, I mean, to put it simply, your book reports. I mean, yeah, like especially like the art books, like how many times are we going through them? And I'm like, who is this? Like, what is this? And I just say, like, Shanti, is this important?

Yes. Right? Like, do I need to have, like, I don't know. And I'm not, you know, I, I'm not gonna ever open that book, right? Like, I'm not gonna necessarily go through it. And you, you have all of this background knowledge and all of this context for everything. Right. Like, I could not possibly have, and even we have multiple buyers at our store.

I mean, I'm not the only one who does the buying. Like we have somebody who looks at all our mysteries and cookbooks and someone who looks at our sci fi. And so typically they read the most in those sections. But I mean, even like, I don't know, I think we have like 18, 000 books in our tiny little store.

We did not read all of those. It's impossible. It really is. It's actually an impossible task. I don't know if people understand the like massive amount of books that we have and those are constantly changing too because new books are coming out and we hang on to some of the older books if we think they're important and return some.

Um, but it really is like when we go through a list, I'm like what, I mean like I remember what was it? Was it the Octopus book? And I was like, do we need another? Octopus book because we had, we already had one that was a bestseller and then like, do we need this other one? And you were like, well, actually, you just like went out on this like full report about like the creature and I'm like, oh my God, how does she know all of this stuff about everything?

But I do really depend on that as a buyer. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like maybe also a personal passion. Yeah. Um, but it really, it is, it's like helpful to have that other brain on, on all of these books because like you said, your list is probably one of the more manageable ones and I see Possibly and like I'm very nonfiction phobic.

Yeah, like I really a lot of people are yeah Yeah, and so that I really yeah, there's such good stuff, and I will not pick it. I just like I know myself Yeah, you know So that I really rely on The reps for. I'm like, you gotta tell me. 'cause I, I do not wanna chase a book that like all of a sudden is a bestseller and like, I only order two and can't get any more of it because everybody else has it.

Oh. I feel like such a failure when that happens and like inevitably happens. So disappointing. And, yeah. And I mean this is part of the fun part about buying is you do have to take a gamble. Yeah. And you, like you said, you're forecasting, you're like thinking this is gonna do really well. Yeah. And hoping it's gonna do really well.

Yeah. And when we're saying do really well, like I think it's also important to emphasize this is from a sales perspective, right? I am a salesperson above Everything else. Yeah, the books are units. I want the units to move. Yep We may love them and cherish them, but they still need to perform in real sales terms.

Right, exactly. In the store. To earn a place in your, what I presume is fairly expensive square footage. Real estate, yeah, it's real estate in our store to have a book out. Yeah, it's real estate. A book takes up space, and it's important that, So when we're talking about something like turns, we're talking about how many times, uh, it sells in its spot, and if it's actually worth its spot.

Yeah, yeah, it's true. Yeah, all of that is measured, and it really is like, there's so many books that I love, and that I'm learning now, like this does not necessarily have broader appeal for our audience, like I'm not, you know, like, I love, love, love this book and I'm probably just going to sell one. And I need to be okay with that.

And there's also, you know, when I'm going through these catalogs, I am also scanning. I have, you know, one customer in mind that I'm like, Oh my God, she loves this particular type of historical fiction. Or he's going to be really interested in like anything like Eastern European themed fiction or nonfiction.

Um, and so I, sometimes I am like personal shopping for some of our regular customers. I'm like, what would this? One particular customer I like to read. That's really reps, really lean on your expertise and your knowledge of your community to make sure that we're getting it right, because bookselling is also one of the only industries that you can return products.

And so, you know, even though it is, um, One of the greatest gifts of publishing and also depression era. Right. Yeah. That was a part of, yeah. Yeah. Um, it is still something that like, we don't want to see a ton of returns. No. Back in our warehouse. No. And we don't want to do, I mean, we don't want to do it. We have to take somebody off of the floor for the day.

Yes. Right. To pull the books, to scan them back out. You know, like it's a lot, like we're putting a lot into the labor of it. Yeah. Plus the shipping. Yes. And then we're paying for shipping here and back. It makes that unit, and I, like, this is something that when I was a GM I would tell people so many times, like, think about how many times you're touching That book, um, because every time you're touching that book, it's cost is going up by a couple cents.

Of course, like you amortize that and, you know, look at it big picture at the end of everything, but like, sometimes it is like you're paying for that book two or three times over when you have to return it. So it's really important to get it right. It, yeah, it is. It really is. And you want to have enough on hand so that as many people as possible find their book.

Yes, right, so there's a breadth of books that you have to have and then also like the depth like we said how many units are gonna go. Because you do not want to get stuck with your pants down after Thanksgiving at any point, right? No, no, no, no. That's when the gamble like starts to pay off and also starts to get very hairy.

Yeah. Yeah. So like what are some things you think about when you think about the personality of a bookstore? I mean, like you worked at two bookstores, so like you understand how bookstores run, but as someone selling to stores, like what are some of the things you're considering about us?

To present to me. Like, you know, it's like we do go through the catalog and there's some books that you're like, Nope, skip, Nope, skip. Like you don't even need to pay attention to that. Yeah, you don't need that. Or like, maybe you want to try one. What are you thinking about, about Watchung booksellers when you, like, what are the things you consider?

Um, I think size is first and foremost one of the things that I'm considering, like what is the square footage of this base that I'm selling to, how much of that square footage is going to be Norton, we're not quite one of the big five, so I don't expect us to have the same um, I won't say I don't expect us to have quite the same footprint because all of our books are so good.

Right, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, there is some, like, proportion to it, right? Like if you're, yeah, if you're not selling us out of a thousand books, then yeah, you might not have the same footprint. Your books are so important. Yeah, I actually, I, I was starting to go down that road, but I have had some buyers, um, this season, especially, um, going into fall because we have some like really big books on the fall season that have told me that their buys are as big as their Penguin order for the season.

Yeah, they have, you know, Penguin Random House has, uh, Domineering market share. So to hear something like that is, um, exciting. Yeah, it's good for the little guy. Yes, and it means we're on the right track with the market. What we're doing. So in terms of how I think of specific stores, like I do have, one of the first things that I did when I became a rep Mm-Hmm.

was I used Google Maps and I put a pin in every single store that I sell to. Uhhuh , so that I can look at, just look at my territory, right. And see a visual representation of it. I mean, like, I'm a very visual person anyways. Um, and then I kind of like mentally break it down into areas. So, like, everything that is within about half an hour of the city still kind of buys like a New York City store.

Right, yep. Because they have a lot of people who live Out here in bedroom communities, but work in New York, they have kind of the same or a similar profile to a New York City shopper. Right. And then when you get into the city, you have to start thinking about, uh, specific neighborhoods. Because of how, you know, New Yorkers can be so relegated to their blocks and their like specific little areas.

And you can see crazy micro trends there too. Yeah. So I would say that, uh, you guys, I do kind of think of you as like a hybrid of suburban and urban, a little more urban, a little more literary. Of course, I consider your children's, uh, location and expansion as a big thing since, you know, you guys invested this, uh, you know, real estate space into it.

So, of course, it's, uh, It's going to be a big part of your business plan and not something to be ignored. And yeah, I just assume that your readers want, for me, uh, smart nonfiction, approachable nonfiction and fiction, but that is still going to make them think. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That sounds pretty spot on.

That's what I would probably, and then also, you know, again, the kid stuff not to be overlooked at all. And we have kind of a new imprint, Norton Young Readers. They have been around since 2019. Um, we published Rex Ogle and we have a new Rex Ogle, on this next list that is a novel in verse, which is very popular for YA right now.

So, That'll be good. We have this like series that's, Dave Eggers sponsored, um, That is, like, with one of his programs that's ordinary young people in extraordinary circumstances.

Accused is one of them. It's a young woman. Um, she was, like, 12 when 9 11 happened. And, she, is Muslim. Um, and so she's writing about the experience of, uh, Muslim Americans after 9 11. And, um, you know, another young man who lived through a hurricane in Puerto Rico, um, and actually did a lot for his community in the immediate aftermath, uh, to help.

So just kind of like to show young people that, um, They can also make a difference. Yeah, and um, you know, we all live through history regardless of age. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I'm sure there are stores that you know, maybe overlook that I mean again, it's like number one thing is real estate like how much space do you have and I'm sure if you have You don't want to overpack them.

Yeah, we I mean our our kids section was so packed that there were so many things you couldn't see because of the way that we had to shelve it because, you know, like there was just like very limited display space for kids stuff. And then you find people browsing get scared to browse. Yes, because they don't want to have to shove it back in the wrong, you know, and then it, yeah, it would just become such a mess.

Um, so easily. And then when we first moved to the new kids space, everybody was like, Oh my God, look at all these new books. Like you guys really like stepped it up. And I was like, Oh, we actually haven't ordered anything new yet at all. We've had this, but now you can see it. It really, like, I mean, like so many customers commented on what, you know, what a great selection we had.

And I was like, We're not getting anything new until September. We literally just brought this over from the other store. We can phase some things out now. Exactly, yeah, it's like now you know what the picture book actually looks like. Um, and so, yeah, to us, the kid stuff is really, really important now. In a different way.

It was really, really important to be so selective before. Yeah. Right. And now it's really, really important to like, you can gamble, have some fun, maybe, right? Like, and just like take a chance. Yeah. On some books. So that's exciting. Um, I do just really quickly want to go back to the, the, the whole book process.

Yeah. So just very briefly, um, Um, you know, we get it, we get a manuscript, we read it pretty early. Uh, we actually have several conferences about it. We have a pre sales conference. Um, where we meet and it's like the editors are introducing it, handing it off to the first time, um, when they're going, here's my baby.

What do you think of my baby? Um, with all of the loaded feelings that come with it. Here's my baby. What do you think of my baby? Yes, exactly. Yeah, I've raised this child. Now judge it. Um, but it still has to perform, right? So, uh, the first pre sales conference is when we can really get our opinions in and say, Okay, what kind of cover are you thinking about this?

Or this title doesn't work for us. Or like, this title is going to have this disambiguation. Um, because of XYZ other book that's out right now, or you have these keywords, and those keywords are going to obscure it in this specific retailer. So we need you to think of different keywords. Or, that's also one more question, BISAC, um, which is also, you know, really important to give to the buyers too, like, where does this fit in?

Right, yeah, what are all of the categories that this could pass, because every store is different. is different. We put mystery and thriller together. We put sci fi and fantasy together. Yeah. Some stories don't. Yeah. We used to have romance with just general fiction. Yeah. Um, so it is, they're really, yeah.

And there's so many books that are genre bending. Yes. Like, okay, but then how do you, how do you want us to sell this? Like, what is the best pitch and who's the ideal reader for this? Yes, that's where we're gonna put it is where that reader is gonna shop and find it in our store Yeah, because sometimes, you know, you won't be there to hand sell every right book and I can hand sell to you with all of my vigor.

Mm-Hmm. and enthusiasm for whatever it is. Yeah. Um, but if it can't stand alone as a product Yeah. Then yeah, those efforts are a little bit Yeah. Then it doesn't go anywhere. So when we get to the actual sales conference Mm-Hmm. , uh, the item, the manuscript and everything, the book as the object is. Fairly set.

Mm hmm. You can see the cover design and for the most part. Yeah, most of the covers are in there And you know, we actually are always learning. I'm always learning about publishing because I've only been in it for five years so like We had a session I don't know, six months ago where we hung out with all the art department and like, how do you guys do this?

Like, what do you do? And the art director gave us a rundown and they do a significant amount of reading as well where they will get the manuscript handed over to them and they'll take just like two or three weeks reading the books that they're working on. Yeah. To try and get the right. vibe because it's not always, you know, a literal translation of what are they talking about in the book to the cover.

Um,And then it gets it, then it gets to the store. It's on the shelf. It's on the table.

What are some like runaway surprises that that you've had that you were like, Whoa, I had no idea that that would do so well. Oh, um, Jesse Sheehan, Snackable Bakes. Yeah. That was a runaway surprise. Yeah. Yeah. There's always, I mean, for me, it's like all of the nature, but I mean, birding books do so well in Montclair.

And I just like, didn't think birding was such a thing. I mean, like my mother in law does it, but like, Right. It's a thing. Um, and then so many of those like nature books, I'm like, how many single animal books can we possibly have? And yet, which many of those are mine? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I'm like, how many octopus books?

Um, and yet, yeah, they always, they always surprise me in terms of like, what, yeah, what's gonna. actually be, um, you know, consumed the most. Yeah. Yeah. By readers. Yeah. So what are you reading now? Like where, how, so you're reading an April 2025 book. Anything like closer, I think September, October, that you're excited about or, or just like, yeah, tell us about something far, far in the future that we can, we can dream about.

Oh, I, um, yeah, This is like five books ago, but Victorian Psycho by Virginia Faito. I'm still, uh, just, it's still rolling around in my head. It was so incredible, disgusting. Um, just like really, it's coming in January 2025. She wrote Mrs. March, if you remember Mrs. March, which was also a wonderful book about a, uh, author's wife who slowly goes insane and, uh, thinks that he murdered a woman.

Um, and they live in New York and it's a very, like, New York y kind of novel. There's ambiguity about when it takes place. It kind of feels like maybe it's 60s, 70s. So she wrote this very, like, sharp, um, you know, taut mystery with Mrs. March. Um, and in this one, the protagonist, like, she's just a psychopath.

Like, just straight up, like, evil. One of the first sentences is in the next three months everyone in this house will be dead. It's great. Uh, the new Richard Powers playground coming out in September, like everyone's Very stoked for the Sally Rooney, which I understand. However, I think we have another Pulitzer.

Oh, great. Yeah. Do you kind of just knock on wood? I don't want to like for real say, you know, but like my gut is saying that, you know, he could, he could be a prize winner. Prize winning author again. Yeah. And she already is a prize winning author. Um, and it's already been long listed for, booker. The booker came out.

Yep. Yeah. Oh, yay. Um, and I'm gonna do a tiny plug, if that's all right. I started a queer book club in Jersey City, uh, it's on Instagram, JCQueerBookClub, um, we meet the first Sunday of every month, uh, for October we're reading Brain Worms, by Alison Rumfitt, um, it's, uh, It's a trans book, about like, you know, the, the people who are, uh, TERFs actually do have brain worms in, in the book, so it's kind of like, you know, it's a horror adjacent.

And uh, someone in the club recommended The Death of Vivek Oji, um, so we're going to be reading that for November. It's been great fun. It's been very satisfying to meet with other people in Jersey City. I just like, was tired of searching for a book club that was queer and like, having to go to like, Brooklyn for it.

Cause I'm like, there are queer people in New Jersey too, people. Yes, there are, yeah. And it's hot fiction right now. Yes. Anyways. So I love it. But how about you? What are you? So I'm actually, I'm reading a nonfiction book right now. Um, I, well, I just read Danzy Senna's, um, Color Television, which just came out this week.

I'm a huge fan of Danzy Senna. Um, I mean, amazing. Yeah. So that was great. And I'm obsessed with her husband too, Percival Everett. Who I didn't, I did not put that together. James. Like James. Yeah. Still think about that book all the time. Um, so I did, I loved colored television, but now I'm reading The Barn by, 

Wright Thompson. He wrote, um, gosh, I'm, I'm going to butcher this, but I think it was called Pappyland. Um, and so this is actually kind of uncovering all of the, um, conspiracies to cover up what actually happened in Emmett Till's murder. Oh, so he grew up in the South, um, in that County. Um, and so the barn is actually the place where Emmett Till was murdered.

And there was multiple, you know, witness suppression and nobody knows how many people were there. I mean, so he's like really slowly uncovering what actually happened, like doing the research of what actually happened and who was there, um, and who was responsible for what. Very powerful. Yeah. And he was just like, it's, it is actually really important to know this now.

Um, even though it, you know, it feels like that's a topic. Um, that's been done, but he said often times down in his hometown you say Emmett Till and nobody knows. Um, so I'm really excited for that. That comes out end of September and I don't often read nonfiction, but I was an African American studies major.

And so this is like exactly up my alley is like African American history, black history. Um, so I'm digging into that and I'm actually going to finish. I think it's my first one this year. Nice. And I'm trying to read, you know, and it's, oh, no, it's not August. It's September, but I'm trying to read only a month or two ahead of time and kind of like forecast my list out as I meet with all the reps so that I'm not reading, like James, I read too early and it was like, Breaking my brain, thinking about it by myself.

You know, I was like, I need somebody to talk to. And I finally got my husband to read it, um, when he had some time and I was like, thank God I can talk to somebody about it. So I'm trying to like keep it close to the release date so then I don't have to hold it.

Thank you so much for coming out and chatting with us. This was fun. so much for the invitation. I really, I really appreciate it. I love talking about this, like. Special, um, blessed little job that I get to do. I feel, like, truly, really blessed. Um, and so many people in my life that are important are, uh, booksellers, are people that I've made through Um, love of bookselling.

Specifically. Not just love of reading, love of bookselling. Reading and bookselling. Yeah. Exactly. It's always fun to kind of geek out with you on this kind of stuff. So Yeah. Totally. Thanks for coming out.

 Thank you, Maddy and Ashanti, for this amazing talk about book buying.

Listeners, you can find all the books they talked about in our show notes and at watchungbooksellers. com. Before we go, let me quickly highlight a few of our many upcoming events. Tonight, September 17th, we're kicking it back to the 70s with Frank DiCaro, author of Disco! The Music, Movies, and Mania Under the Mirror Ball.

Frank is a writer and performer who spent six years on The Daily Show. Don't miss this fun and fascinating talk. And on Thursday, September 19th, we're partnering with B'nai K'shet to host Joshua Leifer, author of Tablets Shattered, The End of an American Jewish Century and the Future of Jewish Life.

He'll be in conversation with the Forward Editor in Chief Jody Rudoran. Next week, Tuesday, September 24th, we're hosting Honor Moore to talk about her memoir, A Termination, and raise some funds for Planned Parenthood. Wednesday, the Montclair Literary Festival and Montclair Public Library host Nicholas Kristoff, discussing his memoir, Chasing Hope.

And , Thursday, September 26th, we've got Shirley Jackson, award winning author Sophie White, and our former guest Laura Sims to talk about Sophie's truly creepy book, Where I End. Sophie has an awesome podcast too called The Creep Dive.

 We've got something for everyone this fall, so make sure to check out all of our events in our newsletter, show notes, or at watchungbooksellers.

com.