The Watchung Booksellers Podcast
Watchung Booksellers' community of writers and readers dive deep into what they do for the love of books.
Watchung Booksellers is located in the heart of Montclair, NJ, a literary beacon filled with writers, journalists, publishers, and avid readers. Each year we host hundreds of author events and every day the most interesting and dedicated readers walk through our doors. Their insights and enthusiasm have inspired us to share our conversations with book-lovers everywhere. We invite you to listen and be a part of our community!
The Watchung Booksellers Podcast
Episode 1: How It Started...
Welcome to the Watchung Booksellers Podcast! In this episode, Margot Sage-EL, former owner of Watchung Booksellers, sits down with Liz Egan of the New York Times Book Review to discuss the store's history and future.
From a mail-order catalogue to the brick and mortar store she's run for 28 years, Margot and Liz recount the hurdles this indie has survived, the unpredicable nature of publishing, and the incredible talent and vibrant local community in Montclair.
Guest bios:
Elisabeth Egan is an editor and writer at the New York Times Book Review. She writes the Inside the List weekly column that features stories about recent bestsellers and edits both fiction and nonfiction reviews. She is the author of the novel A Window Opens.
Margot Sage-EL is now bookseller emeritus of Watchung Booksellers. She continues to help with the stellar author event program and pitches in where needed. Margot started Great Owl Books in ‘94, bought Watchung Booksellers in ‘96 and with the help of fabulous booksellers and devoted readers, cultivated a bookstore that reflected and nurtured this wonderful community.
Books:
A full list of the books and authors mentioned in this episode is available on our website.
Local Interest:
da Pepo
Raymond’s
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Books:
A full list of the books and authors mentioned in this episode is available here.
Register for Upcoming Events.
The Watchung Booksellers Podcast is produced by Kathryn Counsell and Marni Jessup and is recorded at Silver Stream Studio in Montclair, NJ.
The show is edited by Kathryn Counsell and Bree Testa. Special thanks to Timmy Kellenyi and Derek Mattheiss.
Original music is composed and performed by Violet Mujica.
Art & design and social media by Evelyn Moulton. Research and show notes by Caroline Shurtleff.
Thanks to all the staff at Watchung Booksellers and The Kids’ Room!
If you liked our episode please like, follow, and share!
Stay in touch!
Email: wbpodcast@watchungbooksellers.com
Social: @watchungbooksellers
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Hello everybody and welcome to our first episode of the Watchung Booksellers podcast. We are so glad you are here with us for our launch on Independent Bookstore Day. I'm Kathryn Counsell and I am the Events Director at Watch ung Booksellers, and I'm here today with bookseller Marnie.
Marni:Jessup. Hi there. Just a quick background for anybody who doesn't know us Wachung Booksellers is an independent bookstore in Montclair, New Jersey, and we're just outside of New York City.
Kathryn:And one of the many great things about our suburb is that it is filled with authors, journalists, publishing professionals and avid readers. We hold hundreds of events each year and have access to incredible book people coming through our door. So this podcast aims to bring you what we get to be a part of all the time conversations with the pros who share a love of books.
Marni:Yeah, that's right. And, as you know, writing and reading are pretty lonely endeavors and our store philosophy is that books just get better when they're shared in community. So with this podcast, we hope to share our community with you and also bring you into it. So now let's get to our first guests.
Kathryn:Margot Sage L is the now former owner of Wachung Booksellers. She has been running the store for nearly 30 years and recently passed the helm to her daughter, maddie.
Marni:Her commitment to books, social justice and community has cultivated this little bookstore into a cornerstone of our community, and with her is Elizabeth Egan, a writer and editor at the New York Times Book Review and the author of A Window Opens. Liz is also a dedicated customer, a true book lover and an honorary bookseller at Watchung Booksellers, and just one of the most delightful people we know. Enjoy the conversation and we will be back to fill you on what's coming up in the store.
Liz:Margot, I'm going to start this conversation by throwing it way back to even before Wachung Books. Oh, okay, was but a glimmer in your eye, just to set the scene Right. Tell me about your relationship with reading as a kid.
Margot:Oh, as a kid you know it's so interesting. I was thinking about that the other day because people come in and they have there's such a wealth of books that are available now and we just didn't have that.
Margot:We had a few, I think. My parents signed us up for a Book of the Month club and I got the Holiday Family Adventures, which I think only one other person in my life has ever heard of Not the Happy Hollisters, no, not the Happy Hollisters and I kept those books like forever. Who knows how good they are, but anyway. So yeah, there wasn't this big wealth. I always loved reading. I was kind of an awkward kid, so you know, it's my way of hiding from the world but yet being part of the world and learning about it.
Liz:So when did you grow up? Outside of Boston? Okay, it's hard for me to imagine you as an awkward kid. Yeah, but I'll buy it. I feel that many readers were born in that mold. Yes, myself included. Yes, okay, so you're an adult. You're living in Montclair, new Jersey. You were working in textbook publishing is that correct?
Margot:Yeah, textbook development yeah.
Liz:Okay, and so when did the idea for Watch Young Books enter?
Margot:your mind Exactly, but I know it was when my third child was born in 92 here in Montclair. The other two were from Brooklyn. I realized I didn't have and we have an interracial family. So I realized I was't have and we have an interracial family. So I realized I was really having trouble finding books. I mean, back then you had no representation of diversity, I just couldn't find any, or I had to go to specialty stores. There were, I mean there were a handful of black owned stores back then which sadly have not survived, so I would buy up whatever I could for the kids.
Margot:And then I thought to my oh, and there was this catalog, china Berry catalog, which was so beautiful and they had incredible reviews. They were really heartfelt, like they had old and new books. So it was such an education. But there was no books about with children of color at all. And so at one point I called them and I said I love your catalog, but there are no books with children of color at all. So at one point I called them and I said I love your catalog, but there are no books for children of color. And they said well, if that's important to you, you do it.
Liz:Even in the scholastic book fairs, in those circulars, no, but kids weren't in school?
Margot:Oh they were, they were in school. But kindergarten, yeah, yeah, no. Even scholastic book fairs, barely. Wow. You know Walter Dean Myers and Virginia Hamilton they were like the representation, wow. So you did start a newsletter, yeah. So I started a mail order catalog. In 1994, as Jeff Bezos was driving across the country to start his online venture, I was like doing the analog and did my own catalog and felt very strongly that I didn't just want a catalog that was just for people of color. I just tried to include everyone and organize it by topic as opposed to race, because, like so many times, yeah, I didn't want it to be. I wanted everyone to feel that they were a part of this whole thing.
Liz:What was it called? Oh, it was called Great Owl Books. Oh, I love that. And how did you get the word out about it? Like there was no social media, there was no internet.
Margot:I bought a mailing list, but we got a Parents' Choice Award really early on and that was a huge boost. I don't even know. Then we started getting a lot of buy-in from local people who are school districts and a lot of support. That made me think, wow, we need to be a little more locally based.
Margot:So, when Watch Young Booksellers came up for sale in 95, I bought it finally in 96, but I thought, oh, this is great, I can just move the catalog business into the bookstore, work part time, raise my children like you know. It'll be the perfect.
Liz:I love that. You thought that you would work part time as the owner of a bookstore.
Margot:There was a lot of naivety.
Liz:Well, I do think that people really romanticize the labor of running a bookstore and I think I started off as one of those people, but as a neighbor of the bookstore, walking by with my dog, at all hours of the day there is always somebody in your bookstore. The windows are always lit when you get off the train at night, no matter what hour it is. The bookstore is a beacon in Wachung Plaza. Where was it back then? I know it wasn't in the same place.
Margot:Oh yeah, no, it was upstairs above Bradner's Pharmacy. What was Bradner's Pharmacy, which, in and of itself, was this amazing? Did you ever know that?
Margot:No, but I remember the store that had some of the fittings of the pharmacy and now it's a frame store now and a Pilates studio upstairs, but it was up this really narrow, steep incline which I don't know how people even got up there, but it was beautifully appointed. As I said, there was a lot of naivete involved in buying the bookstore but, yeah, I you know we negotiated and there was a reasonable offer accepted and we were able to survive. But I think that was in 96, when I bought it, and those were the years that independent bookstores were closing left and right because of the onset of the online bookstore and we were just so naive like we had $100 days. It's like wow, each day was better than the last. So we weren't an established store that was destroyed by an online.
Liz:we just kind of went along with it and survived, and that was also the era of the mega Barnes and Noble. I remember the excitement of discovering that there was a cafe in Barnes.
Margot:Noble, it just felt like mecca.
Liz:I knew you weren't supposed to be excited about it. You were supposed to continue to only shop in the small local stores, but secretly, I was really drawn to the cafe. How were you affected by that?
Margot:Also not affected because we didn't know what the heck was going on. But it's interesting because other people have brought up that Barnes and Noble democratized book buying because there was always this sense of a bookstore owner being an imperious you know, looking down their nose at you like you didn't pronounce Proust or Proust correctly and you know you asked for romance novels and not the latest literature.
Margot:So Barnes and Noble sort of opened up like everyone, anyone could come in anyone felt comfortable and that's been brought up in book conferences that we went to in the very beginning and always stuck with me because that was part of our whole mission was to have a bookstore that everyone wanted to come into, and so hopefully we weren't that imperious.
Liz:No, you were never imperious. It was one of the early things that drew me to the bookstore, because I'm not a Proust reader on a regular basis and I always, from day one, felt that feeling that you could be reading, you know, big fat romance novels, or you could be reading sleek vintage paperbacks by somebody whose name I can't pronounce, and you were welcome at Watchtower Books. What did Montclair look like in those days? Like how has the town changed?
Margot:I know I hate that trope that Montclair is not what it was I know.
Liz:I'm already saying it I've only lived here for 17 years, oh gosh.
Margot:And so we moved here in 90. And we moved here there. Of course, there were all these. There was this great article, and was it New York magazine?
Liz:Yes.
Margot:Yeah, I remember it, that you know the utopia, the interracial community, and we were like, oh wow, this is the place for us to be. But even when we moved here, it wasn't that yet.
Liz:I'm from South Orange so I remember when that article came out People in South Orange were very bent out of shape because we felt that that was our identity.
Margot:Yes, Well it is, they were similar communities.
Liz:Yes, yeah.
Margot:But I remember feeling like within five, you know, and we moved from Brooklyn, as did thousands of other Montclarians, and you know, there's kind of the shock like wow, what is this? The kids loved it because they had freedom, they could run around. My husband grew up in the city so he was very proud that we had made it to the suburbs but I was like in shock, like I had you know who was I going to call on for an emergency. Everyone was really nice but then went into their homes and like shut the door so it wasn't stoop living where you.
Liz:Or playground culture or, yeah, even playground culture. You have to make plans you have to have play dates. Yes, play dates. Shocking, shocking, it was shocking.
Margot:But it did become the town that we wanted it to be. Yes, and I always say that the thing that I loved about Montclair is if you could get involved in it. Well, you could express a slight interest in anything and you would be immediately the chairperson of that. Much to your chagrin. Yes, much to your chagrin, or?
Liz:mine at least.
Margot:But it is a community in the sense that everyone gets involved. I don't know many towns like that. Yes, you know they have lovely homes and neighborhoods and yes, that's fine, but here you really belong to a lot larger people and I'm hoping that continues. You know, probably, I think, once your kids are out of the school system you're less connected. That way, I'm really grateful to be at the bookstore because I still feel that connection.
Liz:And do you still? Do you still feel people's very strong connection to the bookstore? I mean, I think it's an organizing principle of our town. I always describe it as like I don't belong to a church or a temple. I belong to Ah Chung Books.
Margot:God, that's really great. No, I do acknowledge that we are an important part of the town, but I think that's because we're champions of the town as well, and its people and its authors.
Liz:Yes so.
Margot:I feel very supported.
Liz:When did you move the location above the pharmacy to the corner you're on now?
Margot:Two weeks before 9-11.
Liz:I know. See, I actually knew the answer to that question. But speaking of our community, can you talk a little bit about that day?
Margot:Yes, I was sitting. I had a little weird little office that was built into the store and we were just trying to organize, to get things ready and there was a workman putting the doorstep in or something and he looked up and he said, oh, that's weird, a plane just flew into the World Trade Center. I'm like what?
Margot:Of course, then we listened to I don't even remember the radio, I guess listened to the radio, but what always got me was, first of of all also the kids from the high school, like were let out, like kids were just, you know, walking around the town. But then when people start coming back and they were all covered in white dust, whether whether they made it in or not, like some people were on the boats, and I always say thank god, I don't think Montclair had as many casualties as other towns, because it was what? Wasn't it the second day of school or I think so something like that, and you know, parents were still were going in late because they were bringing their kids to school. And you know, I always find Montclair is much more. We were much more casual. We didn't have the as many people who were sitting at their desk at 7 o'clock in the morning.
Margot:But yeah, that was amazing and also it was amazing for us. I mean, we hadn't even opened the doors yet, but the difference from being upstairs like half a block away and downstairs in the aftermath of 9-11 was that people came in looking for atlases because no one knew where Afghanistan was and they wanted mysteries like forget yeah forget our deep, heavy literature that people used to buy stacks of no they want.
Margot:They wanted escapism. They did not want to, so that that was. Was that the first lesson I think we had in terms of pivoting and readjusting Like this is not. You know, you can start a business and say this is how I want to run it, but you have to be responsive to everyone who's around and what they want and things so far out of your control.
Liz:It's really unimaginable Moving to another huge crisis and I promise I won't dwell on all the sad things but speaking of pivoting, let's talk about where you were four years ago. At this point four years and change, on the on the eve of the pandemic, when it started to become clear that you would not be able to keep the doors open, how did you reassess and strategize and plan?
Margot:Well, I knew that. If so, I think it was a decree from the governor right. Yes, that's true that we had to shut businesses your store was the last place I went.
Liz:Okay, actually, no, that's not true I went to the bookstore and then, of course, I went and got my hair colored and then I went into deep quarantine.
Margot:and then, of course, I went and got my hair colored and then I went into deep quarantine.
Liz:Yes, those were my priorities. I've said it out loud.
Margot:So I don't even I remember there was a Friday, it was Friday the 13th, right Then, like the schools, all of a sudden everything was shutting down. I have to say I was in disbelief.
Margot:You know, like what are people talking about? And then, when the decree came from the governor that we were supposed to close down, I figured, okay, six weeks, right, that's like how long it'll take. But I also knew, if we could, we could not shut the doors. I mean could not stop the business because I still had to pay rent. I was trying to, you know, pay employees.
Margot:Of course, a lot of people left because of health reasons or parenting, you know, parenting responsibilities, and I don't know. I don't know what the thought was, but the one thing that kept us going was that we already had an online, you know, an imperfect but online presence, which used to be 0.01% of our business. We woke up, there were hundreds of orders every morning from people like we didn't know, because that was, you know, libraries were shut and then Amazon decided books were not essential. And here we were, you know, in this community and parents were frantic because, you know, they were getting worksheets for their kids. And I think a lot of people just said, you know, I don't care what you do, just read. We were like literally slinging books and and then turn the bookstore into a warehouse, and there were four of us who, like were able to stay in there and yeah, it was insane.
Liz:And then you put the books at the back of the store and people could pick them up.
Margot:Yeah, I don't know how we even thought of that.
Liz:Well, I will tell you one thing, and I'm probably gonna cry when I tell you this, but for two weeks, of course, we were in you know deep. We were in deep quarantine for months, but for two weeks we went nowhere. After two weeks, we ordered a bunch of books and puzzles online and we emerged from our house, like you know, blinking heavily, like moles, and we walked over to the bookstore and we picked up. It was my whole family, there were five people in my family and we picked up our bag of jigsaw puzzles which, by the way, we never did. We still hate jigsaw puzzles and in the bottom of the bag were five Werther's caramels and it was like whoever took our order online knew that we were a family of five and that we always helped ourselves liberally to the real-life bowl of candy next to the cash register.
Liz:And to know to feel so, seen in that moment where we hadn't seen anyone but each other.
Margot:That was great.
Liz:It was incredibly moving. So you went along like that for how long before you actually opened the doors to customers.
Margot:At minimum four months, but could it have been six months. And then for quite a while we were opening like remember we only let five people in at a time and had appointment was weird, but wait a minute.
Margot:But I was going to say it was during the time when we were quarantined and, amazingly, you know, there were four of us who worked in the bookstore. It was was and we were just. It was just taking orders, filling bags, you know. Yes, we were grateful that we had the work, but I sat there and go this, this is not what we went into book selling for.
Margot:It was the the like lack of human contact was horrifying, and, and also in terms of books for the authors, what we were getting were orders from like I don't know. We sold hundreds of maybe the top ten commercial books, the books that got written up somewhere, and the rest, like all these beautiful new books that we used to be able to introduce people to and hand to them, were just going by the wayside. It was, to me, it was just the saddest thing about Heartbreaking, yeah, about the state of publishing.
Liz:Several of the authors who had brand new books come out at the beginning of the pandemic have new books out this season. Oh, that's interesting. Or last season and I as a reviewer I've kind of kept a special eye out for those books because those authors to have the guts to sit down and do it again, especially the debut novelists, and that's just your book came out to nothing.
Liz:How did you I'm curious, as a boss how was it interacting with employees Like you had to be those four people that you were with in the building? You were all connected the same way. Nobody else wanted to be connected, right? How did you navigate that? We cried a lot, yeah.
Margot:Yeah, and now, and and I don't bet it was it was an amazing camaraderie among between the four of us. It was carolyn, asia and emma and I and, of course, carlo at at da pepo he was also frantically trying to stay alive and yet every lunchtime he would send over for the four of us this beautiful you know, homemade, whatever homemade soup, or his, his love, it was it. It was just, it was camaraderie like really tight.
Liz:Shifting gears slightly, because we could talk about the pandemic for the entire time. I mean, here's a very official thank you and congratulations for surviving and then expanding, which is a whole other topic. But let's pause for a second and talk generally about how the publishing world has changed since you start. I mean, it's a big question, but what's the first thing that comes to mind? Well, we only have five publishers.
Margot:Well, that would be one thing, and one has about I don't know 80% of the business. So it's, yeah, so it's, it's changed and I feel but I feel like there's some good change happening do tell yeah, like there are independent publishers coming up.
Margot:you know of course they don't get their full due or publicity or readership, but I just I think that the one thing that has struck me over the years is that it is a business where you, you know you can have publicity, you can have a plan, a PR plan for a book, launch it very carefully, but you know what, if people don't like that book, they're not going to buy it. And I've seen this happen with books that had, you know, big to do that first week, great sales, nothing.
Margot:Right right and then yet it's like a birth plan. Yeah, it's a birth plan.
Liz:It actually means very little.
Margot:Yeah, and then. But the books where that true, it's truly a word of mouth business, yes, and you know where people are handing books to each other, or a book group gets together and says, wow, let's, you know, read this. And so those books, those books that, like, just over the course of time, just build up, are amazing, and so to me that I still have a lot of faith in that that it's, it's human driven as opposed to yes, there's a lot of serendipity involved and it's a business.
Margot:But you are one of the drivers of that like word of mouth. I mean as a reviewer, a book reviewer, and I mean we rely on the New York Times, like our communities in New York Times and PR community.
Liz:Yes, it is when I love a book I will. I often feel that I missed my career in a publicity department. When I really love a book, I will go hog wild and get behind it.
Margot:Yeah, do you remember that event that you did for us at the bookstore was the no Guilt Book Club.
Liz:Yes, we should do that again someday.
Margot:That was so much fun. I still have the outline or the letter that you wrote and it was so great because that was all part to me, that was all part of making the bookstore part of the community and, like you know, having everyone feel a part of it, Like you didn't have to read the most esoteric literature. And you voiced that so well in that evening.
Liz:Well, thank you, that was so much fun. It was a lot of fun. And how have ebooks factored?
Margot:in, so ebooks have settled down into a rhythm for now. When they first came out, I remember the year that the device was sold through the online. You don't say the name, no, but because they get so much publicity yes, no need but when, when that device came and so many, so many people bought it, like you know it was the perfect christmas gift and hanukkah gift. It's like you. You knew it was.
Margot:It was almost 500, so it was a significant yes when they first yep when it first came out it was a significant like acknowledging that your spouse is a big reader kind of gift.
Liz:yes, thoughtful, it was the, the iPad of its time, I guess. Exactly yes.
Margot:And I remember thinking that January well, january sales are always slow, but the book sales plummeted so quickly that I thought, oh my God, I thought you know I was always. I spent 27 years waiting for the shoe to drop and I'd have to close the store. So we kept going. But I remember saying to myself wow, I thought we'd just kind of die a slow death, but this is kind of immediate, and we limped along. But then, starting in April, people would come in and say you know, I don't know where I am, I don't know who's written this book. I need to have a physical book.
Liz:It has a funny smell, like at least the early one it did. It had a funny, it had a weird clinical smell to it. Yeah, yeah. So, people came back.
Margot:Yeah, so people came back and now. So there are certain genres that do lend themselves more to reading online or not online, or whatever you want to call it mysteries and romance because, those are very consumable book a day.
Liz:Yeah, book a day kind of people.
Margot:so, of course, and that you know, and then after that you know, people seem to have a hybrid approach, like Maybe if they're traveling or whatever, but for the most part they want to have the physical book in their hand. It took a while, but again, yeah, again like somehow we survived.
Liz:We had a couple of slow years, but I wonder if you had been fully on your feet as a bookseller when Barnes Noble opened to those mega stores, if the arrival of the device would have just seemed like the arrival of another mega bookstore down the road.
Margot:Definitely.
Liz:Who knows?
Margot:Yeah, who knows. I think, though, at that point we had already had some major glitches. You know the 2008. Right, you know and somehow, every time we were small enough that we were able to, you know, turn around and pivot, it's like, oh, this is what you want. Ok, fine, we'll get. We'll get this. Luckily, it's always been within the realm of what we believed in, the, you know, the kinds of books, the sense of community. So it we always were happy to move forward and happy to make that change.
Liz:We touched on the idea that people really romanticize the life of the bookstore owner or the bookstore employee. I'm sure that you frequently hear from people who tell you that they would like to open a bookstore too. How would you answer that question?
Margot:today. No, I actually talk a lot with people about owning a bookstore elsewhere.
Liz:Hopefully Because you also I know you're not going to say this because you're very modest you also play a very big role in the community of booksellers across the country, which I know well, and it makes me proud, yeah.
Margot:No, it's nice. I mean, look, we benefit from this being a very literary town, Like I always say. You know, half of the New York Times lives here. We have major publishers, I think, represented right all across the board, who are our friends, our customers and all. So we have, you know, gotten a lot of support. But we've worked hard within the community and in the larger bookselling community. So I've been on the board of the regional booksellers, I've been very involved in the national bookselling, so I appreciate that.
Liz:So you are a logical person for people to come to with that question.
Margot:Also, I like talking to people.
Liz:So I don't know.
Margot:I mean, yes, maybe. Yes, sometimes I'm very busy and I can't, but for the most part I like talking to people. So I don't know. I mean, you know, yes, maybe. Yes, sometimes I'm very busy and I can't, but for the most part I like talking about the business because it helps me sort out in my own mind what works and what doesn't work for us. You know, it's like a little therapy session.
Liz:Right, right. So yeah, you know, I've taken advantage of that myself many times.
Margot:So yeah, so I yeah, so I save you. But I just was on the phone with someone else who wanted to open a store up outside of Burlington, vermont, so it was really interesting talking to him about the demographics, the size of the store, what he envisioned, and this was a person who was not a pie in the sky. I love to read, I just want to own books.
Liz:Those are not the people who should own a bookstore. They should volunteer in the library.
Margot:Yes, or or be yeah to. Who is it? Years ago, somebody said what's the best profile for a bookseller like you know? Is it a major reader? Is it this? And somebody said, no, it's a waitress like someone yes, someone who can go. It's like hi, hen, I'll be right with you. You want this? Oh, I know you like your coffee this way, and that's like that's so funny.
Margot:Yeah, and that's what really, of course, you have to read, because that's what you're selling, but it is. That's what I love about our booksellers is that they, you know, they know who comes in, they know what their book is, they know what to recommend. When we do our buying seasonally, I sometimes get one copy of a book because I know that one customer who will want that and you're thinking of that one customer. And then there are other books you look at and say you know, this is what we should all be reading.
Liz:So right, that's you know the sort of spinach of the list. You've had lots of people working at the bookstore for many, many years, but you also have younger people who come through. You know you have your high school program. How do you find people who really know what they're doing Like? I would actually rather, at this point, talk to some of the younger people, than even you believe it or not, when I go in, because I love hearing what they're reading and they really know their stuff.
Margot:Yes, they're great readers and they read. Yeah, they would read books that I don't, you know have the inclination to read. We also talk about books among ourselves, so I feel like, okay, you've read that. You've explained that to me.
Margot:at least I have a sense of what the book feel like, okay, you've read that, you've explained that to me. At least I have a sense of what the book is. But yeah, we've got great young people. How do you find them? Some of it must be self-selecting. Yeah, you know like who would apply at a bookstore? Everyone? Well, not everyone.
Liz:Everyone, every sentient human being as far as I'm concerned should apply in the bookstore. Well, salaries are one deterrent.
Margot:That's very true. Yeah, so you know we can only afford to pay so much. So it really I think it really does have to be someone who loves books, Right, and loves to talk to people.
Liz:Tell me a little bit about how you work with authors in the community, because you have an unusually high number of authors as part of your congregation, so to speak, and I'm sure that can be a lot of fun, and I'm sure that can also be a little bit tricky.
Margot:Well, it's a lot of responsibility and first of all, like I used to know every single author in town. And now books come. I mean, we have so many, we have over 100 published authors in town and this is like traditionally published, not self-published, or poetry chapbooks, which of course there are also a lot of passionate people in town. But so now I don't, I don't have a handle. So now I don't have a handle. But for the most part, authors come in and introduce themselves or, as I'm going through all the catalogs, the reps will point out that someone's from Montclair or the area. So what is the response?
Margot:Well, in the very beginning, when we opened up, and I always thought that if we cannot champion our own authors, if we can't celebrate them and have a party or you know an event for them, where you know back in the days, I guess Barnes Noble is doing more events, but you couldn't get in unless you were an A-list author. So here I just said you know what these, these are our people and we'll always, we'll always support them. But when we started in 96, we had less than 10 authors in town.
Margot:It was like Valerie Wilson Wesley, Sharon Dennis Wyeth, John Katz, Neil Baldwin. That was it, and now we have so many.
Liz:I wonder how many of them moved here knowing that your bookstore is here.
Margot:One person did say to me she goes, you know I was coming, you know can I leave Brooklyn, can I survive in you know Montclair? And she said, and then I looked at your, we had a list which we have to update, a list of Montclair literati on our website and she looked at it and she said, oh, if these people can live here, so can I.
Liz:So and I know, and I know people have said that they moved here because they knew there was a bookstore Well, I, am definitely, definitely one of them, but I always wonder how many conversations you've had with people who have New York license plates you know their car is still running outside, yep how many conversations you've had with the tortured person wondering can they survive in the suburbs? I feel like you and Raymond of Raymond's are the two people that probably feel that conversation the most. Let's talk a little bit about the future of the bookstore. Okay, because you have just welcomed your daughter into the fold. I'm sure it's been in the works for a long time, yep, and I kind of wish she was here. You should have a whole separate podcast. Yes, I think she deserves it For sure. When did the two of you start talking about the next phase?
Margot:So it was post-pandemic? Okay, not directly. Well, when did the pandemic end?
Liz:Right.
Margot:But it was. Maddie was a principal in New York City, two young children here in Montclair and being a high school principal was kind of brutal during the pandemic and commuting with two little kids was also like insane, and I had no idea that she wanted to come into this store. I mean, she always said I'm going to be a principal, a lawyer and run the bookstore. I'm like you know what, maddie, it's not a part-time job.
Liz:And she had worked in the bookstore before. Had all of your kids worked in the bookstore In one way or another, or as you know, as Maddie said, I worked here at nine years old and was not paid. They volunteered in the bookstore.
Margot:And I it was. I also recognized that I was not moving forward, like there was so much emphasis to get us back on track. After that I felt the air was just knocked out of me, and I was always one for coming up with new plans like new directions. Every year we would have a great staff meeting where we would just kind of talk about, you know, wither the bookstore, and those were really driving principles to make changes, but it wasn't happening. So when Maddie started talking really talking about coming on and taking over the bookstore, it was great and she brought the energy to. She wanted to open the children's store. She had the energy, the vision, the wherewithal to do all that.
Liz:So and just as being a waitress is excellent preparation to work in a bookstore. Probably being a school principal is even better.
Margot:Yeah, well, because her I mean she's a devoted educator and so that like carries through and yeah, she has a whole different way of looking at kids books, whereas mine was much more, you know, emotional and romantic. She also understands the fundamentals behind reading and all that. So it's very exciting and she's got a whole new crew of people who are like moving forward with this mission. She's tried to tried. She is expanding the book fairs and you know all that stuff that takes a lot of work.
Liz:And embedding your bookstore and your family even deeper into the community. Oh, I would say yeah. When you walk into the kids room, even if you walk by and look at what's in the window, do you think back to the days when you were looking at book offerings for children and they were only offering books about one type of kid?
Margot:Yeah.
Liz:Because the world has changed in that way.
Margot:Very much for the better, yes, and publishing is much more responsive. More authors and illustrators are coming on. The editorial boards have changed. I mean you know it has changed, but no, I didn't think of that. I do remember walking into a bookstore once and somebody said oh, here are all the children's books and here's the shelf of diverse books. I'm like what?
Liz:It's like when you go into the grocery store and there's a shelf of international food. Yes, exactly that has you know, tabasco sauce or something on it Like really.
Margot:This couldn't be integrated, yeah. And now it's like everything is everything, yes as it should be.
Liz:I know it's hard you don't have a crystal ball but what do you see as the next big publishing trend? Wow? I know, but you have had a front row seat for all these years.
Liz:Where is the publishing industry going? I mean, the publishing industry is always sounding its own death knell. That's just having now crazily worked in this field for 30 years, I've heard a hundred times it's not how it used to be. Things are changing. It won't be like the old days and I've kind of learned to tune that out that books still keep coming out. People still keep reading them. There are always the crazy outliers and then the quiet chuggers along. What interests you on the horizon?
Margot:Wow, I've not given that much thought. But one thing I think is I think there are way too many books being published, published and I understand there are niche markets and you know I, yeah, I, I actually I have. I am curious like within what it would be like to be within publishing and how they work. Like, when an original book gets published, people take if someone's taking a chance on it and it gets published and it takes off, then why all this? Like, within the year are there 20 more books just like it?
Liz:Well, one of my abiding memories of the night of the no Guilt Book Club at your bookstore. It was the first time I saw Fifty Shades of Grey. It was on one of the tables in the middle of the store and everyone was talking about it and I had never heard of it and I thought that's a funny trend. And then, probably 10 months later, I was standing in the same spot and there were 10 knockoffs of Fifty Shades of Grey. I always wonder what is the book that? I mean? I'm sure a lot of people wonder this. But what is the book that hasn? I mean, I'm sure a lot of people wonder this, but, like, what is the book that hasn't been written? We spend so much time talking about how to make a Frankenstein of you know all the things that people like. What is the thing that people want to read but haven't read?
Margot:But I think what we've seen over time is that it doesn't have to be what people want to read. Yes, Like remember when Seabiscuit came out. Yes, I'm like oh, who wants to read about a horse? I'll get one copy for a friend who, I know, bets on horses. Yes, you know, and yet, but so it's. Those are the best books. Yes, those are the best books the kismet books. It's not. It's yeah, the kismet books.
Liz:That's a great way of putting it. Yeah, I always think of it as the immortal life of Henrietta Lacks.
Margot:Yes, I'm kind of dating myself.
Liz:But I always say this I remember when I first heard of that book I was like nobody's going to read a book about jeans, right With a G. Yeah, I would definitely read a what. Everybody read that book and I think about it every single day, and it came out years ago.
Margot:So to me it's more. It's the art of writing, the authenticity, not necessarily of the subject, although it's always exciting to have like a new subject. You know, people have put their heart and soul and passion into a book. That's, I feel like that's, what we're all responding to with the books that we love, the books that we press into someone else's hands.
Liz:Are you always aware of that? Every day, when you walk into the store that you are, you're treading on people's dreams. You know every, every book you buy or don't buy, every book you sell or don't sell, every every spine on the on on your shelf is someone's dream, Somebody's quiet morning for years on end toiling it's a very lonely way to work to be a writer and if a book doesn't sell, we return it to the publisher.
Margot:I feel awful returning it. I feel like I did not give this person a chance, this writer, and. But you know, in the end we are a business. I, you know, I have to pay the rent and I have to pay employees and I have to pay the publishers. So I can't, you know. So that's, yeah, it's.
Liz:The fact that you're you've been at it for this long and have not become jaded and just thought like next, bring in the spring books. That's a tribute to you, margo. What are you? This is my least favorite question when people ask me this, but I'm going to ask you anyway what is the book that excites you the most right now?
Margot:Well, I'm just finishing up the King Solver's Demon.
Liz:Oh, good, good.
Margot:Yeah, I know it's like had its. You know all its publicity, but it is well deserved. Yeah, it's such an amazing book, but then the other so. So, in terms of new books coming out, maddie just gave me the galley for Percival Everett's new book.
Liz:Oh, wow, yeah.
Margot:James, which is a retelling of Through the Eyes of James with Huck Finn, is a retelling of Through the Eyes of James with. Huck Finn Wow yeah, so that's fascinating. And then I've got all these galleys for author events coming up that we're very excited about. So, yeah, the pile next to my bed keeps getting larger.
Liz:It's formidable, I'm sure. Are you always thinking six months ahead, Like when somebody asks me for a book recommendation? I have a book recommendation for a book coming out in July, but I don't have one for a book that came out on Tuesday.
Margot:Right, which is one reason why I know the publishers want us to read the galleys early so we can start getting the word out. But if I love a book, I want to be able to walk in the next day and actually hand it to someone. So it's very hard for me to read six months in advance. I can look forward to something, but I read more immediately.
Liz:We always at the book review wonder how frustrating it is for readers and booksellers when we publish a review for a book that won't come out for 10 days.
Margot:we publish a review for a book that won't come out for 10 days. Yeah, but wasn't that started because of our internet purveyor?
Liz:You know I don't have an answer to that. Sometimes it's a matter of what fits in print.
Margot:Oh, that's interesting.
Liz:Yeah, there are a bunch of reasons. I think it's probably better for the author if the review comes, if it's a positive review, if it comes out before their publication date, because then they get more pre-orders maybe.
Margot:Well, I think, yes, I think people have been trained to do that, initially people. I remember was it just a few years ago? I feel like there was a change because you got the review and you knew the book was in the store, but now it's. It could be a whole week.
Liz:If I read like a civilian, I would be so incredibly annoyed that I had to wait a week for the book to come out.
Margot:But I think, as I said, I think we've all become trained. You've, yes, you've I apologize.
Liz:I apologize for my, for my role in that. What keeps you I promise I don't have too many more questions but what keeps you up at night when you're thinking about the bookstore?
Margot:Like the orders I've forgotten to place. We do a lot of off-site events with organizations in town which are hugely important to us, so I'm always a little worried that I've got all that covered.
Liz:How do you keep track of it all? Are you a paper person? Isn't that a big problem? Do you have an app that you track everything on?
Margot:I am a paper person, but then I seem to lose the scraps of paper that I write my notes on. So I think I rely very heavily on fabulous staff, and Maddie has a much more nimble brain than mine at this point.
Liz:So you're lucky to have her. Yeah, okay, this is really my final question. Imagine you are Margot circa was it 1992? Standing at the bottom of the steps of the old bookstore, ready to walk upstairs for your first day, above the pharmacy, as the owner of this bookstore, what would you say to her?
Margot:Wow, I think. I mean, I think what I would say is kind of what I did, which is just one foot in front of the other. Just keep doing it. Doing what you love will make it happen is not necessarily true, as we all realize, but somehow it's worked. It's worked here. I've got the support of family, I've got the support of a community. I know there are quite a few people who said you're crazy, why are you doing this? You know a bookstore on the second floor, a bookstore. You know it's like you just did it, I don't know. It just kept working, and for that I'm really grateful.
Liz:I would say to you you did it and for so many people you offered a home in this town before this town felt like home. And thank you, thank you, I'll leave it right there, thank you. Thanks, margo.
Marni:Thanks, liz. Thank you, margo and Liz, for the great conversation. We loved hearing about the history of watching booksellers and we're especially grateful to both of you for all you do to support books.
Kathryn:And for you listeners, we hope you take some time today to visit us or, if you aren't local, visit your own indie bookstore on Independent Bookstore Day. We love to celebrate today with our customers who keep us going. Also, today is the beginning of Succeed Together's Montclair Literary Festival. There are events all day long at Montclair State University and most of them are free and ticketed. Events are happening all throughout the week and then next Saturday, on May 4th, there's another full slate of author talks in downtown Montclair, and you can find out about the festival and all of our upcoming events in our show notes and also at watchungbooksellerscom.
Marni:Recording and editing at Silverstream Studio. Original music is composed and performed by Violet Mujica, and thanks to all the staff at Watchung Booksellers and the Kids Room for their hard work and love of books.
Kathryn:And thank you for listening. If you enjoyed it, please like and subscribe and follow us on social media at Wachung Booksellers and if you have any questions, you can reach us at WBpodcast at WachungBooksellerscom.
Marni:Join us in a couple of weeks for conversations with Dionne Ford and Alice Elliot Dark. Until then, for the love of books, keep reading, thank you.
