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The Watchung Booksellers Podcast
Watchung Booksellers' community of writers and readers dive deep into what they do for the love of books.
Watchung Booksellers is located in the heart of Montclair, NJ, a literary beacon filled with writers, journalists, publishers, and avid readers. Each year we host hundreds of author events and every day the most interesting and dedicated readers walk through our doors. Their insights and enthusiasm have inspired us to share our conversations with book-lovers everywhere. We invite you to listen and be a part of our community!
The Watchung Booksellers Podcast
Episode 7: Thrill Seekers
In this episode of the Watchung Booksellers Podcast, authors Laura Sims and Hillary Frank discuss thrillers--how we define them, why we are drawn to them, and how they compare in different mediums: print, audio, film, and television.
Our Guests:
Laura Sims is the author of How Can I Help You, a New York Times, Publishers Weekly, Book Riot, and CrimeReads Best Book of the Year. Her first novel, Looker, was included on “Best Books” lists including Vogue, People Magazine, and Real Simple. An award-winning poet, she has published four poetry collections.
Hillary Frank is the award-winning creator and host of The Longest Shortest Time and Here Lies Me. She is also the author and illustrator of three young adult novels and a collection of essays called Weird Parenting Wins. Her audiobook, Wedlocked, is a feminist domestic thriller releasing in 2025.
Books:
A full list of the books mentioned is available here.
Resources:
Rear Window
Twin Peaks
Get Out
Promising Young Woman
Severance
No One Will Save You
Parasite
Baby Reindeer
Law & Order: SVU
Books:
A full list of the books and authors mentioned in this episode is available here.
Register for Upcoming Events.
The Watchung Booksellers Podcast is produced by Kathryn Counsell and Marni Jessup and is recorded at Silver Stream Studio in Montclair, NJ.
The show is edited by Kathryn Counsell and Bree Testa. Special thanks to Timmy Kellenyi and Derek Mattheiss.
Original music is composed and performed by Violet Mujica.
Art & design and social media by Evelyn Moulton. Research and show notes by Caroline Shurtleff.
Thanks to all the staff at Watchung Booksellers and The Kids’ Room!
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Hey everybody, welcome back to Watchung Booksellers podcast. I'm Kathryn and I'm here with Marni, and we are thrilled to have you with us today.
Marni:Yeah, today we're talking about thrillers with our guests Laura Sims and Hilary Frank. Last year, laura published the fantastic thriller how Can I Help you, and Hilary's working on her first audiobook thriller, which will be coming out next year, and, of course, both of them are total fans of the genre. And today they're talking about defying genre, stalker narratives and TV and film influences.
Kathryn:Yeah, it's a great conversation and I love a good thriller in the summer as well as in the winter. And if you didn't get a chance to read Laura's book last year, the good news is it's out in paperback just last week. It's such a page-turner. It's the kind of book you're going to just throw in your carry-on or your beach bag and kick off your weekend with some creepy thrills. Marni, what are you reading? I'm reading two books right now. I'm reading one for the Memoir Book Club. The first one for the Memoir Book Club is Rabbit Heart. It's a mother's murder, a daughter's, story. It's by Christine S Irvin. It came out in March and it's beautifully written but, as you can imagine, incredibly heartbreaking. And the second book I'm reading is the Second Coming by Garth Riss Kohlberg and it just came out on May 28th. It's contemporary fiction and it's incredibly good and I definitely recommend it. How about you, catherine?
Kathryn:Well, I just finished God of the Woods by Liz Moore. I read it in galley form and it's being released on July 2nd, so in a couple of weeks. It is one of those books that walks the line of thriller slash literary fiction. It has a really tight plot, but it also has just great character development and it was excellent. It has a really tight plot, but it also has just great character development and it was excellent. It was pretty chunky, like a 500 page read, but I blew through it. It's that good. So keep an eye out for that, or you could pre-order it from our website, and it's kind of the perfect thing to take camping over Fourth of July weekend if that's your game. If you're interested in any of these books or any of the other ones that all of our guests discuss from week to week, we have a webpage devoted to all of those books at watchungbooksellers. com. With that, let's get started with our introductions.
Marni:Laura Sims is the author of how Can I Help you, a New York Times Publishers Weekly Book. Riot and Crime Reads Best Book of the Year. Her first novel, looker, was included on Best Books and Vogue, people Magazine, real Simple, entertainment Weekly and more, and is now in development for television. An award-winning poet, sims has published four poetry collections. Her essays and poems have appeared in the New Republic Boston Review, lit Hub and Electric Lit. She and her family live in New Jersey where she works part-time as a children's librarian.
Kathryn:And with her today is Hilary Frank, where she works part-time as a children's librarian. And with her today is Hilary Frank. She is the award-winning creator and host of the Longest Shortest Time, a podcast about the surprises and absurdities of raising other humans. She's also the creator of here Lies Me, a fiction podcast about middle school. She is also the author and illustrator of three young adult novels and a collection of essays and parenting hacks called Weird Parenting Wins. Hilary's next book, wedlocked, is a feminist domestic thriller and will be released as an original audiobook in 2025.
Marni:Enjoy the conversation and we'll be back afterward to fill you in on Hi.
Hillary:I'm Hillary, hi, I'm Laura. So today we're talking about thrillers. We are, and why don't we start with how we even define thrillers? What is a thriller?
Laura:Oh God, it is a really good question. It's one I spend probably more time thinking about than I should, as someone who supposedly writes thrillers but supposedly, I guess you know, there's suspense, there's tension, there's a fast moving plot. I find that a lot of thrillers and I don't do this myself usually, but there's some kind of big moment and then a tidy resolution at the end Does it need to be scary.
Laura:I think. It's all. I think thrillers are often connected in some way to crime or intrigue, either crime or like espionage, something like that.
Hillary:So you're talking about a certain kind of thriller, though right when you say that, like I think the kinds of thrillers that I'm drawn to and the kind that you write are usually about kind of like an everyday theme, you know can you talk about that a little bit.
Laura:Oh my gosh. Yeah, I mean it's funny. Just the other day somebody was saying I feel like this book, this latest novel of mine how Can I Help you is really about loneliness, and I of course I knew that somewhere, but I never think about it. Like, oh, I'm writing about loneliness, but I think it's really interesting to think about a thriller about loneliness. I love that idea of what you're saying of like these everyday themes that you can dramatize and like create tension around and build characters around.
Hillary:I think that's a great idea, like I think about books like the Other Black Girl.
Laura:Yeah.
Hillary:It's like it's a thriller about race.
Laura:Yeah, right, absolutely. And like what else? Yeah, I'm trying to think too. Oh, like I think of Notes on a Scandal as one that I really love, zoe Heller's Notes on a Scandal about this inappropriate relationship, you know, between student and a teacher, all about power dynamics and it's kind of it's also about gender, because the teacher is female, the student is male, so we've got this like reversed power relationship right, and that's really fascinating too. So I agree that those are the most interesting thrillers.
Hillary:Yeah, I wonder. So if we're trying to define it, there's a book I love called Outlawed by Anna North.
Laura:Oh, yes, I read that. Yes, I love it. So it's like, it's like a feminist.
Hillary:Western.
Laura:Yes, right.
Hillary:Also about reproductive health, yes, and so I wonder is that a thriller, because it's got the fast pace and like the mystery and the intrigue, or is that literary fiction?
Laura:Oh gosh, I think that's a great question. You know, I feel like there are so many thrillers that are literary and can be literary, and then things that are literary and can be literary, and then things that are called literary fiction, like that book. I think totally that is a thriller. I read it the same way I was, you know, turning pages quickly. There's a pretty fast moving plot, so you could call it a thriller. I think that these genre definitions that we use can be really loose and they are becoming looser. But you know, when you write a book, like when I'm writing something, I don't think, oh, I'm writing a thriller or I'm writing psychological suspense. I just kind of write what I'm writing. Is that how you feel? Also?
Hillary:Yes, yes, but. But at the same time, the industry forces us yes Into boxes, because you have to be put on the shelf somewhere, exactly.
Laura:And there is. There are good consequences from that, because there are a lot of people who want to read thrillers and so that can help with sales, which is nice. But you're right, it puts us in a box and that can be really confining. I feel like when I'm writing I'm focused on character, emotion, ideas and imagery. I'm not thinking, oh, this, like, what is the mystery? How am I going to make this plot twist?
Hillary:You know it's interesting because I've done a lot of work in the parenting space and I hate being boxed in as a parenting media person you know like I cringe, like, especially when people call me like a mommy podcaster. Oh gosh, it's so condescending. Yes, but you know, I think that it's interesting to hear you saying that you have similar feelings about being boxed in as a thriller writer, Because to me, I feel like I don't want to be boxed in as a parenting writer, but I would love to be characterized as a thriller writer because that seems so cool.
Laura:That's so funny. I guess we're never satisfied with what we have.
Hillary:No matter what, what comes to mind to you when you think? When you don't like being characterized as a thriller writer, I guess it's.
Laura:You know, I feel like there is snobbery around it in the literary world, Like someone who has written something that is called a thriller is not going to be considered for writing awards, you know, unless they're genre related. So that I feel like is limiting and unfair, because I certainly know I've read a ton of, or not a ton, but quite a few thrillers that I find are just as literary as and beautifully written and everything as books that are called literary fiction, and so I just feel like it's unfair and can be constricting. And then, on the other side, as I said, you call something literary fiction and it is harder to get people to pick it up. It goes both ways. But I also I should say also that, you know, I think often people have certain expectations of what thrillers are. Defy those expectations, you have, you know, dissatisfied readers, people who are very up in arms about this is not a thriller. Why did I read this? So it can be a disservice, I think, to the book.
Hillary:Can you talk a little bit about your process, like how you plot a thriller, because like it's so, it's so plot driven and for me this is like I'm not like a plot person, I'm more like a dialogue person and writing scenes and stuff, but and like getting to the emotion of a scene. So like how do you plot?
Laura:a book. This is going to be very disappointing, because I really don't. I'm the same way. I care about characters and imagery, ideas, feelings, dialogue really characters are. You know, that is where all books start for me, and so I try. You know, when I started writing fiction, I tried writing outlines and I felt that it really killed the book when I figured out, okay, this is what's going to happen, this is the plot. So I try to go with the voice, with whatever character I have, and then I try to let it flow naturally and I do find that A, that makes it more interesting for me and B maybe more interesting for the reader, Although it's probably also like my pacing is weird. I don't check all the boxes all the time, but that's how I have to do it. So are you, do you plot at all Like since you've been working on a thriller?
Hillary:I have been working on my first thriller so exciting. So did you? How did you do it? I have had to really plot it out, you have, and I'm in the middle of writing it right now. So I still need to figure some beats out. Yeah, but I have the big beats figured out. Yeah, but I tried to figure out, like, what the twists would be and where it would end, and what I've found is that the first way that I wanted to end it was really cliched.
Hillary:And I knew it in the moment, I was like I don't like this, but I don't know what else to do, and so, as I've been writing it, I've been coming up with new ideas of making things twistier. And I'm finding that with the antagonist that I write things for them to do, and then I'm like Ooh, you're bad.
Laura:You surprise yourself. That's the best. That's the best, that's great. I mean, I should say I do do a little bit of plotting, in that as I'm writing I have a general idea of where I think things will go. I do usually have the very, very, very end in mind. I just don't know how to get there. And I also like every day that I'm writing at the end of that day's session, I kind of scribble some notes about okay, what's next, like what's going to happen next. So I do prepare a little bit, because it helps a lot.
Hillary:I also find that I like to go in and write the scenes I'm most excited about first and maybe just do like a sketch of what comes in the middle. Otherwise I can get really stuck on the transition.
Laura:I just tend to write it all out and most of it is just garbage, and then I spend a lot of time revising Right.
Hillary:I love revising. Revising is so much better than looking at a blank page.
Laura:It is, I agree, 100%. So much better. And your thriller is an audio book, right, it is an audio book, yeah, yeah. So how is that different for you? Because you've written fiction before and I know you've written podcasts, and so how is it different writing for audio versus writing for the page?
Hillary:That's such a good question, so I'm hearing it, yeah, as I'm writing it, and I can use sound effects to mean things. It's not super immersive sound design.
Laura:Yeah.
Hillary:But you can use a little bit of sound design in music. Okay, to like enhance what's going on and to add meaning to what's going on in the dialogue and the narration. Yeah, and you also know that you're going to have somebody performing it Right and so you don't need to know, like, how something is said. Yeah, because they'll just say it Right that way. Yeah, so like you don't have to say, like she said curtly.
Laura:Right, you know She'll, they'll figure it out.
Hillary:Yeah, or like I'll be directing it.
Laura:Right. So yeah, you'll be directing as well, okay.
Hillary:Yeah, and then I think about transitions between scenes and how I can use audio to make like a dynamic transition from scene to scene.
Laura:Okay, that's really cool. So do you think you would also want to write just like a book, regular book?
Hillary:So there's a possibility that this could also become a print book. Okay, there would be some adjustments I'd have to make. Yeah, for it to not be written like a script. Right, that makes sense. Yeah, okay, but I haven't really thought about writing a print first. Okay, thriller, but yeah, sure. That sounds fun too. That's great. Have you thought about doing an audio thriller? I?
Laura:would be open to it. Sure, yeah, sounds exciting.
Hillary:You know it's funny talking about thrillers because there's so much suspense and twistiness. Do you find it hard? Like, how do you talk about your work without giving things away?
Laura:It's very hard to do and I feel like I want to say as little as possible about the book, like I'd be happy not only talking about it, but like the jacket copy. I'd be so happy if it were just like a sentence or two. But that never happens. You know, for me, when I go into a book I rarely read the back or I might skim it, but I generally just open to the first page and if it calls to me I read it. You know, it doesn't matter what the story is or anything, but I hope that people who need that kind of introduction and summary will have it on the back, but people who don't might come to it without that and I feel like that experience is better to come to a book without some kind of, even if there's nothing that's really revealed, I don't know.
Laura:So if I'm like Laura, what is, how Can I Help you about? When they meet, their lives become dangerously intertwined. That's one way, you know, I can be a little more specific, I think, without giving too much away, because you know a lot about the character, especially the main character, margot, right from the start. But yeah, I just it's so hard to talk about books. Yeah, it's like I would rather write a whole novel than summarize the novel that I have written. Like let me just write a whole other novel. I'll do that.
Hillary:Are you somebody who also doesn't like previews or trailers for movies? Oh no, I love trailers. Oh, you do, I do.
Laura:I mean, my memory is pretty bad, so I do tend to forget what I read or see. So that helps what about you.
Hillary:I hate trailers. No, I don't. I don't want to see them, because then when I see the movie I'm like, oh, I already saw all the best parts, Like I know the punchline. I know, I don't want to know the punchline.
Laura:Some trailers are very artful and you know, hold stuff back, but some really do that. They do all the highlights and you just don't want that. Yeah, right now I'm writing a book that it's problematic because I really don't think there's any way to really talk about it without ruining the whole thing. So that's going to be interesting. When that comes to marketing time, like how is this gonna work? Yeah, I don't know.
Hillary:Are there movies or TV shows that you use as inspiration?
Laura:Oh gosh. I mean I am a huge Hitchcock fan. I have seen Rear Window probably 100 times or more in my life since I was a little kid, so I really think I absorbed that into my you know, his aesthetic and the whole suspense genre into my bloodstream when I was very young, and also David Lynch Twin Peaks.
Hillary:Yes, oh, my God, I'm such a David Lynch fan. Yes, yes, did you watch Twin Peaks when it was on TV? Oh yeah, yeah, me too.
Laura:Yep and his films. I just yeah, love him. And yeah, what about you? Yes, yes him, and yeah, what about you?
Hillary:yes, yes, I, so I do turn to tv a lot. When writing audio stuff. There's like a lot of techniques. I feel like that. Actually like if you close your eyes, yeah, and listen to tv shows or movies, you can hear what translates without a visual, and so I've done that a lot to try to figure out just like how I can make scenes more compelling in audio and like move faster and stuff, but also like I'm a big fan of Get Out and Promising Young Woman oh my God, yeah. And Saperance, yes, I love all these.
Laura:I like the weird stuff. Me too. The weirder the better I love all the new horror films. The weird stuff Me too. The weirder the better I love all the new horror films. No One Will Save you yeah, get Out is like probably one of my favorite movies of I don't know. My life was Parasite, yes, I love.
Hillary:Oh, it's so good.
Laura:It is so perfect and it kind of exemplifies what we were saying about genre earlier. This is a movie that totally defies genre. I mean, it is funny, it is a family drama, it is straight-up horror, it is psychological horror, it is class commentary. What do you call this film? You know Right, what do you call this film? You know, I feel like it might be easier in film and TV to like have something just be what it is. Maybe I'm wrong, but yeah, I don't know.
Hillary:I mean, I think I feel like I've seen articles about people dissecting like what is horror and what is thriller? Yes, that's true. Yeah, it's true.
Laura:Oh, and I wanted to mention Baby Reindeer.
Hillary:I'm in the middle of watching that right now. Don't no spoilers.
Laura:Have you seen episode four? I saw it last night, okay, okay. Yeah, I just wanted to mention it because of what you asked, in a way, like that show is very different from what I'm writing right now, but it made me think about. You know, I have written kind of stalker novels, for whatever reason. There's this element in my novels of voyeurism and like people looking at each other and it really helped me see one of the things that I love about looking at like or considering the stalker narrative which you know, I actually I can't say too much about it because it would be a spoiler, but I just it.
Laura:so I am really influenced by TV and film also, even as I'm going, even if it's not something that's connected to what I'm working on.
Hillary:What do you think the voyeurism thing is about for you?
Laura:I don't know. I you know. I do think we live in a society where we are all constantly looking at each other and even though I never write about social media or place my stories in really contemporary settings, I think I'm processing, you know, the way that we treat each other now that we can look at each other's lives all the time in the palm of our hands, and the effects of that, especially the toxic effects of that.
Hillary:Yeah, yeah, as a thriller writer. Yeah, do people look at you funny? Like are there? Are there things that people assume about you after reading your work? Like you know, things get pretty dark. They do.
Laura:So are you. Are you trying to prepare yourself for?
Hillary:the future. Well, no, I mean I will admit that, that I met you briefly before that reading your book. Okay, that's right. And then I read it and then I was like, oh, what's going on in this woman's head?
Laura:What is the common question?
Hillary:Yeah, so, but I'm sure you could say the same about me. But but like, do people assume things about you as because you are a librarian?
Laura:Yes, oh yes, Any kind of overlap and I do feel like this is more common for women writers than than male writers is that people assume you are writing the story of your life and I do draw. People assume you are writing the story of your life and I do draw, of course, on my life, like everybody does for fiction. But, yeah, people definitely assume that I am really weird and dark, which I kind of am on the inside. So it's not inaccurate. But I'm also other things you know, and I think it's hard for people, once they read your novel, to like accept that you can be all these different things and not just this weirdo who wrote this novel.
Laura:Yeah, it's funny because I have a new co-worker. I'm at a new job and I have a co-worker who's now reading my books and she's really funny. She's an older woman and so I was working at the circ desk and she had just finished how Can I Help you? And she came up to me the other day and was like How'd you like the Cirque desk today, Margo? I feel like she's very you know she will say stuff like that. I feel like a lot of people are thinking that, but don't say it.
Hillary:I love that because of your book you can say the circ desk Like it's like, it's like, it's so like, but like, but also like, like. The circulation desk is this dark place to work?
Laura:Oh gosh, it can be. Yeah, it's true. What inspired the story? That?
Hillary:you wrote. So I'm really interested in women's reproductive health and you know weird health stuff that that goes on for us okay, and like how that stuff gets perceived by society and how it impacts our relationships. I'm being very vague here, but like but yeah. So it feels almost like an extension of other work that I've done around things like pregnancy and like menstruation and stuff. And so, like those are things I was kind of like well, it actually feels like a thriller to live through some of that stuff it feels like a horror show.
Laura:Yeah, just wait till perimenopause and menopause.
Hillary:Oh, yeah, yeah, no, I know that's like it's coming soon and so, yeah, I just feel like I don't actually have to change that much Right From from like observations I've made in real life. Yeah, to turn it into a thriller? Yeah, I think you're right, that's true.
Laura:Well, since we're talking about our influences, maybe we could both talk about, like, what drew you to writing a thriller? You know, why do we write these? Why do we think people read these very dark books? They're, you know, really popular, why.
Hillary:Well, I think that for me, there's like lots of big dark stuff happening in the world that we need to process and I want to be a person who helps start conversations about those things, but I'm not the kind of person who does it like in a really serious way. I think I like to do it through, almost like trick people into it. Yeah, but through entertainment, yes, I love that.
Laura:So yeah, yeah, what about you? I? Yeah, that's really interesting, I love that. So, yeah, yeah, what about you? Yeah, that's really interesting, I love that. Yeah, I am not somebody who can respond quickly to things on social media and say perfectly witty things you know in two sentences to respond to big issues. So I feel like I also work things out that you know I'm processing in the real world in these novels, in this very slow time that is writing fiction. That almost feels like meditation or something. I also feel like writing dark books helps me channel all of that and like get it out so that I can live my pretty normal boring adult life in a responsible and together way. It helps me purge a lot of that and just like take care of my family and go to work and do those things.
Hillary:So I think it can be kind of cathartic, even, I think, as a reader even like I'm reading these kinds of dark books as a way to help me process things that I'm wrestling with in a way that, like a news article, actually feeds all of my anxiety but doesn't help me to process and make sense of it.
Laura:Right, absolutely, because it's like information kind of thrown at you. We have so much coming at us and novels you can sink into. It's really I feel, you know, as a writer, writing is the only time I really think sounds kind of sad, but it's the only time I feel like I have space and time to think. And also when I'm reading, yeah is like again kind of meditative and allows me to, like you said, process a lot of these things. It's also, I think it's very comforting reading dark books, watching dark films, films that deal with like, yeah, like horror films that we've mentioned. I've always, when I've been in a bad place in my life, turned to horror, not comedy, not rom-com, nothing like that, but like david lynch, you like, these are the things. I think. Having that darkness externalized can be a relief while it's on and you're in that frame of mind more than like laughing or yeah, yeah, and it's also that like alternate reality, like I think that's what the weird stuff is about for me.
Hillary:Yeah, it just like gives me a new way of seeing the world.
Laura:That can help you when you go back to the real world right. Yeah, it's not just escape. I don't feel like. I always feel like it's productive when I'm watching or reading something that is terrifying and thought-provoking. Yeah, yeah, so I find it really interesting that is terrifying and thought provoking.
Hillary:Yeah.
Laura:Yeah, so I find it really interesting certain things that people write about that I would never touch. Is there anything that is too disturbing for you to write about, gosh, I mean, or something even that you don't want to read, I can start if you want. Yeah, yeah. So the Death of Children? Oh yeah, which is so popular. People love to read about children in peril or children having died, and I cannot go there. I mean, I can barely read it, much less ever consider writing it.
Hillary:Yeah, no, yes, I'm right with you. Yeah, and especially after having a kid. Yes, I used to really like watching SVU and after I had a kid I really watch it. Okay.
Laura:Yeah, because.
Hillary:I was like there are so many good child actors.
Laura:Yeah, show, and that's why.
Marni:I like it.
Hillary:No, but yeah, I also have a hard time with sexual violence and like graphic violence in general, especially when it comes to film and TV. Okay, but I have a tolerance for it if it's done in an artful way I get you. And it like it doesn't feel gratuitous, right, so but I think, yeah, I don't really shy away from that stuff as themes, but I wouldn't write graphically, yeah about it.
Laura:I understand, Like I understand, we should write what we fear most and I think that's why a lot of people go to those places like sexual violence, kids dying or being hurt really badly. But I just can't go to those places myself, Like those are not the places that I go, even though I do write you know, very dark stuff. But I really believe that, Maxim, write what you fear.
Hillary:Yeah.
Laura:Yeah, do you think you did that in this? Absolutely.
Hillary:Okay, okay.
Laura:Yeah, that's, that's intense, and so you're about to. You will be releasing this thriller audio book called Wedlocked. How do you build an audience for it? Do you have a kind of built-in audience from previous projects that you've done, and how do you? This is a very different work, so, like, how do you transition that?
Hillary:or I do have a built in audience from my podcast, the longest, shortest time, and social media and like email lists and stuff, yeah, and I think it's completely in the universe of what I've done with all of my past work which is really at the heart of it, about reproductive health, so, and this is just like a thriller about that. So so, yeah, I think I do think that that audience I hope will be into this.
Laura:Yeah, and how will you promote it? Like what will?
Hillary:you, what outlets will you? Yeah, I'll probably go on other podcasts.
Laura:Yeah, okay. That's helpful, yeah, so will you use social media to promote it?
Hillary:I will, but I don't lean on social media as my primary promotional tool. Yeah, and I think it's changed a lot. You know, in terms of the algorithm. You know people will see your posts more if it's your face, and I don't love doing those kinds of posts that are like me on video or you know my face. So I you know there's a reason. I work in audio, right, I'm more comfortable there and so I will use it, but it's not my first line of promotion. So what is? What is Podcasting?
Laura:Podcasting. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Hillary:I think, like going on parenting podcasts and health podcasts, I've found to be my best tool for getting the word out about my work.
Laura:That's great. What about you? I don't have the podcast. I mean I have done podcasts. You know I do use social media. I don't know how effective it is, so I don't kill myself trying to be something I'm not on. You know, I mix business and family stuff, which you're not supposed to do. I do not have a sleek social media presence at all, but I just kind of do what I can and I have found that really people find it in like find the book in different ways. That has nothing to do with me. Putnam has done a great job getting word out about this book, so I think people have come to it themselves, you know, through other, like other venues. But I do try. I do feel like you've got to try.
Hillary:Is there anything you've read recently or that you're reading now?
Laura:I just finished. Oh, here's a great example to have a book that is not a thriller but I read as a thriller and I think could be called a thriller. I just read the Tower by Flora Carr. It's a debut novel, it's historical fiction about Mary Queen of Scots. It's like a moment in her life where she was imprisoned with her waiting women and escaped. So it's like, I think, a two-year period where she was imprisoned with her waiting women and escaped. So it's like, I think, a two-year period and it's very tightly woven. It's very claustrophobic. We didn't talk about that as part of thrillers, but I love the claustrophobia of a thriller.
Laura:You know when you're in a contained space and it has action and tension and all of the things that we've talked about. It's really well done. Yeah, I really enjoyed it.
Hillary:What about you? Recently I've been listening to a lot of thrillers as audiobooks that were written first for print, but then there's an audiobook version, and I recently listened to Big Swiss by Jen Began. So good, and even though it wasn't an audio book original, I feel like they used the audio in a really creative way. That's great. It's about a woman who transcribes sex therapy sessions for a sex therapist and she doesn't know who the people are yeah, because they're only identified by their initials. But she hears their voices and she lives in the same town as them and she starts to recognize who the people are, and so in the audio book they made really interesting use of voices.
Laura:Okay, did they have multiple voices? Yes, yeah, yeah, for the recordings. It was really cool, awesome, I love that. That's great. I've been wanting to read Big Swiss for a while and I need to read it. Highly recommend it, yeah yeah. Are there kind of standards, like your favorite thrillers that you've read that you would recommend?
Hillary:You know, the original one that made me really interested in this genre is the Shining.
Laura:Oh, okay, yeah.
Hillary:Yeah, and I mean, I never think of that as a thriller. I love the movie and I love the book, yeah, and the book is kind of different from the movie in interesting ways and so, yeah, I remember that I think I read it after I saw the movie and I was struck by things that changed Me too. So I'm also wondering, though, about like more traditional, like mysteries. Oh yeah, do you like?
Laura:those at all. I do Okay, I consume everything, okay. So you know, so I loved the Club. Oh.
Hillary:I didn't read that by Ellery Lloyd, which is actually a husband-wife team.
Laura:Oh, that's right.
Hillary:I knew that. And then, like Louise Penny, I love Still Life.
Laura:Love Louise Penny. Yeah, I've read 11, I think of the books.
Hillary:Oh, wow, yeah. So what are your go-tos?
Laura:Yeah, so Louise Penny is one of them. She's like my top comfort read. I mean I think she's much more than that as a mystery writer. That series is pretty incredible. So I love the Louise Penny and Spectre Gamache novels. I used to really love Henning Monckle, the Swedish author, and you know I grew up reading Nancy Drew and Agatha Christie. Like those things are deep in me, the number one ladies detective agency novels. So I really love those, Like a recent one that I loved was Vera Wong's Unsolicited Advice for Murderers.
Laura:I feel like there's kind of a new crop of like a fresh take on the cozy mystery that I've really enjoyed, like the Finley Donovan those novels, and yeah, I love those.
Hillary:I just realized another big influence on me is Gaslight.
Laura:Oh, the film, the film.
Hillary:And that actually might be really what made me want to write this thriller. Wedlocked that goes to do like a fresh take on, or like a contemporary take on gaslighting women, oh I love that.
Laura:That's a perfect combination with reproductive health issues. Absolutely, yeah, that's great. A couple of thrillers again that are kind of have unusual takes on the genre that I've read recently and loved. One is Pet by Katherine Chidge, which I thought was absolutely brilliant.
Laura:One of my favorite books of the last year, for sure, and one that is not recent but that was really popularized on TV, was Walter Tevis's the Queen's Gambit, which I read a few years before it came out, and it, to me, is the perfect thriller. And it's so funny because on the back the blurb from Wall Street Journal says a psychological thriller, because back when it came out in the 70s or 80s I don't even know when, you know thrillers were not really a thing, so they were just calling it that as like praise. You know, and it's very unusual, we wouldn't think of it as a thriller today. It's just about this female chess player. You probably saw the TV show, but it was one of my favorite reading experiences of all time. Oh, wow, it was incredible. So what's next for you? I'm working on a new novel and I'm in revision stages, so I'm working on that.
Hillary:What about you? Well, I'm still wrapping up writing wedlocked, okay, and so I'm working. That's my main thing that I'm working on, and I am. I have some podcasty stuff for the future that I'm working on too.
Laura:Oh, good, like new podcasts that you're going to do. Okay, yes, exciting, that's great. Okay, yeah.
Hillary:Well, so nice talking to you, Laura.
Laura:You too. That was really fun.
Marni:Thanks, laura and Hillary. As we mentioned, how Can I Help you is in paperback now and we can't wait to hear Hillary's audiobook Wedlock next year. Oh and, by the way, listeners, when you buy audiobooks from Librofm, they contribute a portion of their sales back to indie bookstores, which makes them a great partner to us. And before we go, I want to highlight a few of our incredible summer events. For our spy thriller fans, don't miss our night with Daniel Silva. On Tuesday, july 9th. He's launching his latest Gabriel Allen novel, a Death in Cornwall. That day he's only doing a handful of events on the East Coast and we are so proud to be one of them. So please join us. And tonight, tuesday, june 11th, eric Larson presents the Demon of Unrest with Montclair Literary Fest. And on Thursday, daisy Garrison launches her debut Six More Months of June at 44 Fairfield and Open Book. Open Mind presents Claudia Cravens with Lucky Red at Montclair Public Library. Then, on Tuesday, june 18th, ananda Lima is in store with Dionne Ford to talk about Craft Stories. I Wrote for the Devil. And then, wednesday, june 19th, henry Neff celebrates the launch of Witchstone. Registration is full for that one, but we are planning to live stream it, so keep an eye out for more information about that. On our website and in our newsletter, and you can find out more about all of our upcoming events in our newsletter, show notes and at watchung booksellers. com. Recording and editing at Silverstream Studio in Montclair, new Jersey. Special thanks to Timmy Kellany, brie Testa and Derek Mathias. Original music is composed and performed by Violet Mujica, art and design by Evelyn Moulton and research and show notes by Carolyn Shurtleff. Thanks to all the staff at Watch ung Booksellers and the Kids Room for their hard work and love of books and thank you for listening. If you enjoy the podcast, please like, follow and share it. You can follow us on social media at Watch ung Booksellers and if you have any questions, you can reach out to WB Podcast at WatchungBooksellerscom.
Kathryn:We'll see you next week. Until then, for the love of books, keep reading © transcript Emily Beynon.
