The Watchung Booksellers Podcast
Watchung Booksellers' community of writers and readers dive deep into what they do for the love of books.
Watchung Booksellers is located in the heart of Montclair, NJ, a literary beacon filled with writers, journalists, publishers, and avid readers. Each year we host hundreds of author events and every day the most interesting and dedicated readers walk through our doors. Their insights and enthusiasm have inspired us to share our conversations with book-lovers everywhere. We invite you to listen and be a part of our community!
The Watchung Booksellers Podcast
Episode 6: The Author Hustle
In this episode of the Watchung Booksellers Podcast, authors Henry Neff and Cyndie Spiegel go beyond the art of writing to discuss the art of promotion. From presales to long after the launch, book promotion is hard but necessary work in a changing publishing landscape that requires more from the author than ever before.
Our Guests:
Henry Neff is the author and illustrator of seven fantasy novels, including the 5-book "Tapestry" series and his upcoming adult debut, The Witchstone, which releases on June 18. His work has received critical acclaim, won multiple awards, and been translated into nearly 20 languages around the world. Henry lives in New Jersey with his wife, two sons, and a pair of rescue pups.
Cyndie Spiegel is a sought-after speaker and the best-selling author of two books; Microjoys: Finding Hope (Especially) When Life Is Not Okay and A Year of Positive Thinking: Daily Inspiration, Wisdom & Courage, which sold nearly 300,000 copies in the United States and has been translated into multiple languages. She lives in New Jersey with her husband and two overly particular cats.
Books:
A full list of the books and authors mentioned in this episode is available here.
Resources:
Shogun
Jane Friedman Newsletter
Register for Upcoming Events.
Books:
A full list of the books and authors mentioned in this episode is available here.
Register for Upcoming Events.
The Watchung Booksellers Podcast is produced by Kathryn Counsell and Marni Jessup and is recorded at Silver Stream Studio in Montclair, NJ.
The show is edited by Kathryn Counsell and Bree Testa. Special thanks to Timmy Kellenyi and Derek Mattheiss.
Original music is composed and performed by Violet Mujica.
Art & design and social media by Evelyn Moulton. Research and show notes by Caroline Shurtleff.
Thanks to all the staff at Watchung Booksellers and The Kids’ Room!
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Hello everybody and welcome back to the Watch ung Booksellers podcast. Thanks for joining us today. I'm Katherine and I'm here with Marnie, and we've got another great conversation in store for you.
Marni:Today we have two writers who write about very different subjects, but both do what all writers need to do: promote, promote, promote.
Kathryn:Writers Henry Neff and Cyndie Spiegel will share their insights into how they keep the publicity ball rolling long after the pub date has come and gone. Guess what it's hard work.
Marni:Let's introduce them. Henry Neff is the author and illustrator of seven fantasy novels, including the five-book Tapestry series and his upcoming adult debut, the Witchstone, which releases on June 18th. His work has received critical acclaim, won multiple awards and has been translated into nearly 20 languages around the world. Henry lives in New Jersey with his wife, two sons and a pair of rescue pups.
Kathryn:And Cyndie Spiegel is a sought-after speaker and the best-selling author of two books Microjoys, finding Hope Especially when Life Is Not Okay and A Year of Positive Thinking, daily Inspiration, wisdom and Courage which sold nearly 300,000 copies in the United States and has been translated into multiple languages. She lives in New Jersey with her husband and two overly particular cats.
Marni:Enjoy the conversation and we'll be back afterwards to fill you in on what's coming up in the store.
Henry:Hi, I am Cyndie and I'm Henry, and we wanted to get together today to talk about a subject that is near and dear to a lot of authors and is becoming an increasing necessity in today's market, which is really about promoting your book and your brand, and one of the reasons I'm so excited to talk to Cyndie about it is that I have a book coming out in June, my adult debut. I've written some children's novels before, and I have always struggled candidly with promoting my own books and putting myself out there, and I think that you are exceptional at it, not only in promoting your books, but building your brand, and so you had a book come out last year called Microjoys, and I would love to just you're such a clear thinker and you have so much experience in this space. I would love to know, just at a high level, how you think about promoting your brand and your book in conjunction with each other or independently.
Cyndie:Thank you for th at very nice intro. I think of no. We write very different styles of books. Right, I write books in the self-development, self-growth area. But given the kind of books that I write and the work that I do in the world, I think it's a very easy transition right From work that I do to the books that I write. And so when it comes to promotion, it does feel very natural for me. Everything I do is sort of in the vein of personal leadership, optimism, positive psychology, and so I really have, over the past decade, built this brand around it.
Cyndie:But what I think is important about sort of this whole conversation that we're having is it almost becomes a job to promote your book, and I don't know that most folks really really understand that. But the promotion for books starts probably six months before the book comes into the world and continues actively for, I'd say, three months after the book makes its debut and then, if you want your book to continue to sell for the rest of time, you know you continue to talk about it. So it's. It is a long process that I don't know. It's a little bit of a secret, I think.
Henry:I did a writing retreat with, I guess, about 10 other writers in North Carolina and the Outer Banks last fall.
Marni:And.
Henry:I would say this topic was the hot topic at the retreat and if there was a common theme and these were all published authors some of the people had published multiple New York Times bestselling books. But if there was a common theme across the board, it was that authors are becoming more and more responsible for promoting their stuff and that you can no longer really rely on the publisher to send you out on tour. Book tours are kind of a thing of the past, unless you are a rock star right or a household name or something like that.
Cyndie:Which I am not. I don't know about that.
Henry:But it is the kind of thing and people I feel like get very, very nervous because, especially, I'm not on TikTok. I am on certain social media channels but I'm not on TikTok. I have certain skills but I don't have other skills, and so I feel like people sometimes authors get very nervous, especially if you're more introverted, which a lot of authors are about. Gosh, do I need to be doing all these things? Which things should I be doing? How should I be doing them? Do I have to spend a lot of my own money and time trying to do these things? And I would love to know, from your perspective, what is a sensible way for an author to go about thinking about this and strategizing and putting their best foot forward.
Cyndie:Yeah, thank you for that setup, because there's so much, I think, when we get a book deal that we don't necessarily know. But I think in today's day and age, henry, we don't get a book deal unless we know this, because you have to put this into your proposal how you plan to market the book right, and a big part of marketing that book is building a community before the book comes out right. So, whether it be years before and you may be saying you know, an author might be saying, well, I don't have a large community, I don't have a large platform we do have the internet right and you have the ability to write a blog, to use any of the platforms that exist to start to get your voice out there, because you will need the help of a community to promote your book. It's not something we can do on our own and I often hear about how publishers used to do that. That's never been my experience.
Cyndie:I've always had to promote my own books and I think the number one way that I've been able to do that and to get books sold and to get people in the seats of bookstores is really about the community piece of it, not assuming that I alone can be solely responsible for it, because I can't. So part of that means getting your community excited, getting folks buy in before your book even shows up in a bookstore, right? And you do that online in many different ways. If you are parts of communities whether it be groups in your local communities or online groups really starting to talk about it and get the buy-in of other people that is the only way that I've seen the success of the books that I've written thus far is via other people. What do you think about that?
Henry:Well, so it's interesting hearing you talk about it, because you are some of your background in business, in fashion, as a professor. As I don't know if influencer is a dirty word to say this.
Kathryn:But you do have.
Henry:You do have a large community of people that are interested in you and what you have to say, and so that's something, when I hear you talk about it, that that's something that I would guess probably fewer than 1% certainly fewer than 5% of people are probably going to be bringing to the table when they start out.
Henry:So for somebody who, let's say, I mean just even using this book that I have coming out in June as an example so I have a small community, or not a small community, but a community of, you know, a few thousand people that follow me on Facebook or on Instagram or things like that I have this book coming out in June.
Henry:I am an artist, so I illustrate my books and that's something that I can bring to the table, but I am, you know, not some sort of video creation expert or anything like that. So if you were me and you have this book coming out and you have a small community that exists, but not a massive community to leverage, what are some of the levers that you would think about pulling leading up to the book launch? To make people aware of the book, maybe to try to encourage people to pre-order the book right, because that's ideal. Those you know sort of week one book sales, when you have a book come out, are really really important if you want to be included on certain lists. So you know, if you were putting yourself in my shoes, how would you think about it.
Cyndie:So the first thing I would do and I know everything comes back to community for me is reach out to the folks that I know and say hey, this is happening, who can you connect me with to speak to? Right, because it's not just your community, it's also that extension. You happen to be an artist, an illustrator, right, so you can do all of these creative, cool things visually that I could never do in my wildest dreams. How are you using your art to promote your book on social media? How are you getting that in front of other folks that have larger audiences on social media? Something that is really quite tangible to think about now and this is something I did early on with my book is I hired somebody to help me with podcast PR. So where are your people? And that's not something that I know. You know I can obviously give generalizations and say start to post on social media. You know, start to send out newsletters. Yes, you're going to do those things, but you want to reach audiences beyond your current audience.
Henry:So, just to jump in, just completely pure serendipity, my oldest son plays baseball and on his team, one of his teammates' mother is the head of PR at a very large publishing house, one of the big ones, and I saw her yesterday and I mentioned that we were going to be doing this podcast and so we were chatting and I was like, all right, you know, I have this unbelievable access to this resource right here. I would be woefully remiss if I didn't take advantage of it. If you had one piece of advice for your authors when it came to promoting their own books, what would you say? And she thought about it for a minute and she said something that just the reason I'm jumping in is because it hits exactly on what you said. It was know your audience and how to reach that audience. So if you are writing for kids, you know doing stuff on Facebook probably isn't going to reach them Right, but just even taking that moment to pause and say who is really this book for?
Cyndie:And where are they? Where?
Henry:are those people Right. But I'm sorry, please jump back in, but I mean that was exactly what she said. I thought she was going to have some. Really I don't know. I mean it was such a kind of common sense thing, but then when I thought about it I was like gosh. You know, I don't know if I've thought about, for the Witchstone, this book that's coming out in June. All right, who is the audience for this book? What are the best ways to reach those people? What social media channels right? Who do I know that might have be able to tap into those communities?
Henry:Just that sort of basic blocking and tackling, to use a sports metaphor that oftentimes by the way, I don't know what that means, so just basically like kind of marketing and PR 101, just these common sense things that sometimes I think people skip over in their rush to try to just do something.
Cyndie:Yeah, yeah, and it's also, it feels very overwhelming. Something that I did and I've shared this with you because we're friends behind the scenes is I had a spreadsheet that listed out who are all of the people that I know that can help me promote this book. Now, it was probably seven or eight tabs and quite detailed, and so you do this six months before your book comes out. Who are the people that I know, who have influence? It doesn't mean they have TikTok accounts, right, influence means different things to different folks. But who are the people I know? Would they be willing to help me? What is their contact information? So very tactical, and then starting to reach out right, putting a letter together and sending it to them and say, hey, I'm going to need your help with this.
Cyndie:But I think the overwhelming piece is not knowing where to start, and so those spreadsheets are not my favorite thing. They are really not. It is incredibly helpful to get your thoughts from your head onto the page in some way that feels natural to you. You can write it in a notebook if you want, but you really have to, early on, think about who might best support you. Who have you supported that might want to return the favor, but think about who your people are and who holds influence in the world that you're in.
Henry:And that's a great point. And sometimes I know just speaking from my own experience. In social situations I'm not shy at all, but when it comes to promoting my own stuff I can be a little bit shy and not want to impose upon people, but I have found that people do like to help what I found and I'm trying to incorporate this as I get ready to launch my own book in a few months. You want to make it easy for people to help you, so to have a really specific ask.
Henry:So instead of going to somebody and saying, hey, I've got a book coming out, could you, you know, spread the word something that's really nebulous and not specific? Instead, I might say hey, I've got a book coming out, could you please post this review of it on Facebook or Instagram, or?
Kathryn:whatever it is.
Henry:Or if you're in a certain community, could you please share the book with that community? You know, I know that you moderate a group on Facebook and this might be of interest to them. Would you mind sharing it and try to give them a clear ask that's easy to do, the assets that they need to do it, whether that's a graphic or something like that, right and in a clear sort of actionable thing.
Henry:And then I feel like people can help you if you just say, hey, I've got a book coming out, help me spread the word. That's just too broad and we're all busy and that can become difficult to act upon.
Cyndie:Yeah, I think that was the key right being very specific and making it easy for people. You said something that I want to reiterate, which is that folks want to help us. They want to help us. I had a book launch crew and all that meant was essentially reaching out on social media, reaching out to the folks that I know and say, hey, who wants to help me launch this book? We all want to be a part of something greater. You know, I created assets for them. They were social media assets. I created a one pager about the book. As soon as the book was available for pre orders, I reminded them that it was time to pre order. And again, that's when you say be specific.
Cyndie:It's very easy, as the author, to think that our book is top of mind to everybody all the time because we are talking about it all the time. The reality is that the people that we are asking for support aren't living in that headspace. So, as these dates come closer, as we need something, we have to continue to reach out and don't assume that they've already seen it and if they wanted to help, they would have done so. Folks want to help us. We have to be very strategic and very clear on how we propose that. So I kept a folder of assets, you know, making it really easy for folks.
Cyndie:The other thing that I did with my launch crew was I met with them a month before the book came out. I had a launch party, a virtual launch party, where I met with them the week that the book came out. So there's this constant almost buildup for people that again makes them feel like they are a part of it, and I think that was the success of launching Microjoys, was it wasn't something that I tried to do alone, and I also did kind of what we're doing here, right, I looked at resources and said what's the best way to do this? Who knows better than I do? And reached out to those people and said, hey, what did you do when your book came out? People I hadn't spoken to in years who surprisingly said, yeah, we can hop on a call.
Cyndie:So, again, you know, using your audience and being really, really specific. Also thinking about where can you reach more people If you don't have a newsletter? I highly recommend you start one. Even if it's five people that sign up on your mailing list, that's five people who are asking to hear from you Right. You know, and I think we also get caught up in those numbers. Oh, this person has 100,000 followers on that platform. I can assure you that doesn't equate to book sales, right, because what we want are the folks who are really loyal to what we're doing in the world and truly engaged.
Cyndie:I think we can look at those numbers and feel very much like oh, everything is stacked against us and it's not. You know those five people that signed up to be on your newsletter list where you're sharing information about your book coming out. They are highly engaged, right, and that's what you want. You'd rather have five engaged people than 20 people who don't care about what you're doing.
Henry:As I'm listening to you, I mean so you are very good at building community and very good at pulling people in, but one thing that I've noticed with you that I think is also important to mention is you are wonderful at expressing gratitude, right, and so when you're asking people to do things for you, expressing that appreciation, making them feel seen and appreciated, I think goes a long way, and that I also want to sort of rope back in. That applies, I think, also to the publisher, and so one of the things that I've found so I've done a whole gamut of things in the books that I've released my first series I leaned entirely on the publisher to do everything, because I didn't even know what I didn't know With a book that I had come out in 2016,.
Henry:I did a lot of initiatives on my own. I even hired an independent publicist, we did ads, we did all kinds of things, spent money, which I want to talk about later but one of the things that was very important to do, and that any author needs to do, is to coordinate and communicate with the PR and marketing teams at your publisher, and oftentimes that'll involve sitting down and just understanding okay, hey guys, like what do you? You plan on doing if you are having a book put out there with a traditional publisher? They are going to submit your book for reviews. They are going to check a lot of boxes in terms of trying to announce to the world that this book is coming, to try to get it in front of reviewers. Doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to get your book reviewed in the New York Times or the Washington Post, but they might well try.
Henry:But if there's one common gripe that you hear from authors, it's that they don't feel like their publisher did enough to, you know, marketing and promotion to support their book. Everybody complains about this, but one of the things that it's important to underscore is that they are doing a lot of work for your book and it is important to thank them. And I promise you, it's a small community, it's a small world. You know, being nice to work with does pay dividends. But also it's important to communicate with them to make sure that you're not duplicating efforts or that you're pitching the same, you know, news, show or podcast or whatever it is to appear upon. So having that communication is vital.
Cyndie:Yeah, that's a great point and I think, not only having that communication but driving that communication, your publisher and the PR team at your publisher they have many books to work on right. So if this is important to you, you have to be the driver of that and take accountability. I think there's this world that exists where folks think that the publisher is going to lead on this and that's not the case. So I sat down with my publisher, I want to say six months before the book came out, and said Can we talk about what's going to be done? And I'll go back to that handy dandy spreadsheet that I mentioned before who are they going to reach out to? What podcasts, what media outlets? Now, you're going to do it on an individual perspective, right, but getting that information?
Cyndie:I was able to tell very early on that the kind of podcasts that I wanted to get on to talk about microjoys were not necessarily going to be the strong suit of my publisher to reach out to them. So I hired someone separately to do that. But you only know that if you're driving that conversation right Again, like they're working on many, many books, you have to prioritize your book. They are going to do the best they can. But it really is our job to be aware of what they're doing and don't make it difficult for them which I can't say that I've always not made it difficult but there is a sense of the same way that we want the folks who are helping us promote our book in a more traditional sense to buy-in. We want our PR team at the publishing house to also have buy-in.
Henry:Right and to your point in terms of driving the conversation. We all want certain things. We would all love to have customized, super customized and expensive a lot of money behind them promotional efforts the reality is that publishers can't do that for every book that they put out there, but I do feel like you can be direct as long as you're cordial and professional and asking questions, and I just sometimes just check in, kind of every two, three weeks just to check in, and I try to do it around something that I have done to try to make their jobs easier.
Henry:So I'm going to do a series of signed prints to incentivize people to preorder the Witch Stone when it comes out in June, and I just did an animated asset that I'm going to be putting out on social media, but I want to make it available to them as well, in case they want to take that and put it out there. So if you can help yourself and create things on your own, you can also use that as an opportunity to communicate with the PR and the marketing teams right and work in conjunction to help each other out along the way as you're building toward that book launch.
Cyndie:And that goodwill goes a really long way, because your PR team wants to know that you are in this with them, right? So you sharing assets with them, whether they use it or not. There's a feeling that, okay, we're both doing this Again, like we are in this together. Thank you for sending that over.
Cyndie:And you know, a general rule of thumb that I have everywhere in life, but especially here, is don't be a jerk.
Cyndie:That's not what I was going to say, but don't be a jerk.
Cyndie:Don't be a jerk to the publisher, don't be a jerk to your community, and what I mean by that is common decency goes a really long way when somebody goes out of their way to help you, when somebody books something for you, no matter how big or small, you do have to show that appreciation and gratitude, because that's how you really start to build this sense of ownership, or other people can build this sense of ownership around your work, which is, I think, ultimately the goal. And just to go back for a second, the sort of touching base with your publisher I think that six month prior meeting that I talked about, you want to, if you're having this with your publisher, start to lay out a timeline. When can you expect to hear back from them? Right, Rather than you needing to sort of prompt that it's like when can I expect to hear back from you? Have that stuff written down, whether it be in your spreadsheet or somewhere else, so that you're both speaking the same language and using the same tools, and then we're all accountable to this.
Henry:So let me ask you a question about social media, right? So there is sort of this thing out there in the zeitgeist that, oh my gosh, you have to have a platform. You have to have a community that's installed and sometimes I know I can feel this pressure. You feel an obligation to try to have a presence everywhere, even if that is poorly done. What are your thoughts in terms of the channels that you choose?
Kathryn:And you know you are very good.
Henry:So, for example, I follow you on Instagram and you are very good about posting regularly, right, and sometimes it's a big post and a big announcement. Sometimes it's just sort of a small little check-in. The frequency and the regularity of your posting seems to be something that is thought through. How do you go about strategizing and executing that?
Cyndie:I wish I could say that that's true, but I'm glad it appears that way. What I will say is it was much more strategic around book launch. You know, the thing about social media is that if you ask your publisher, they want you on every platform. Their job is to sell books right, so the more places you can be, the better. Everyone should not be everywhere. I have an entire deck that my publisher put together for me telling me to get on TikTok. I have not gotten on TikTok, you know why? Because I would not enjoy that. If you're on every platform halfway, you're not doing anything.
Cyndie:Well, the idea is where are my people and where can I connect with them? Naturally, for me, that's Instagram, because I've been building a platform on Instagram for 10 years, so I don't have a large platform, but I have a loyal community on Instagram, and I think for me to have then, in the middle of all of this, try to start a new platform or learning how to use the new platform it would not have done anything for me, and I think we all have to consider that again. Where are our people? This is not the time to learn to use a new platform. That is my opinion. This is the time to go in deep, where you already are and where your people are. It is overwhelming to think you have to be on every platform. Somebody just messaged me today and said, hey, there's this new platform. Do you want an invite? And I thought, absolutely not, I don't want an invite, I don't want to be anywhere else, you know.
Cyndie:The other thing you mentioned was about consistency. When you have a launch and you have this book coming out, you really need to for yourself, get clear as to how often you are willing to post. Listen, a publisher is going to want you to post multiple times a day. Are you willing to do that? And again, our books are different. Right, I'm self-development, self-growth. What felt natural for me was to post every day leading up to the launch. Now I would say I post once every two weeks. People want to hear from you. It is our job to give that to them, but that doesn't mean we have to do that forever and ever and ever.
Henry:So, as I think about these things, there are times when I'm doing things and I'm like gosh, this is in my wheelhouse. And there are other times you're like I feel like an imposter, right, trying to do this. So if I was to do TikTok videos, I would feel like an imposter If I choose to post a time lapse drawing that I've done about something that is authentic. That is who I am. That is something that's leveraging not only you know what I'd like to think of as a strength, but also my real, authentic interest in something, and I think authenticity is a big one.
Henry:Because, you know there are only so many minutes in the day and so many hours in the day, and you know when you are promoting a current book, you're also not writing your next book, and so you do have to make hard choices about where you're going to put your time and your energy. And for me especially, you know having two kids and other responsibilities, I can only afford to put that promotion time into things that I'm going to do well and that I actually enjoy. And so for me it would be just a terrible waste of time to try to record a bunch of TikTok videos. I'd do them badly.
Henry:Yeah, and it would also be taking time away from other more important things.
Cyndie:Yeah, no, I think that's a really valid point. And in addition to that, what I might say is you don't only have to be posting about your book. People want to hear from you. And this goes back to that authenticity piece. Right, your community isn't only there to hear about your book. In fact, they're going to get quite bored if that's all that you talk about for three months leading up to it and two months after.
Cyndie:You want to invite them into your world, and sometimes that means like, look at this shit show. There are books everywhere, there's pages everywhere. This is the behind the scenes. Like people want to be in this with you in a way. That's not just the perfection piece. They want to know that like, hey, you know what, this isn't the easiest, this promotion piece. I mean, I can't tell you how many times I reached out and said y'all, I really need you to step in again. I know I've already asked for help, but can I have you step in again? You know I'd like you to leave a review on has come back to me and said Cyndie, you've been asking for too much help. Right, again, like people are there for you.
Henry:It's about authentic engagement yes, right and having clear asks, but also I try to do things that are fun for me and are going to be fun for other people. So I've done things in the past and I actually want to sort of bring some of these dust, some of these off and do them again with this book that's coming out, even though I'll probably have to tweak it, because the book that's coming out is for an older audience than.
Henry:I've written for before. But, like I once did something, it was like hey, everybody, create a Lego display of your favorite scene from the Tapestry series that I wrote, and it was amazing how many people did it and how creative they were. Or draw your favorite character, or doing little polls, sharing engagement. What are you watching right now? So lately, the must watch for my wife and I has been Shogun, right so we just watched the ninth episode last night and we're really into that. Just engaging on other things and another big one is to celebrate other authors and give shout outs to other people and what they're doing and to celebrate their success, right? So you make a great point that if your post and the things that you're putting out there are just me, me, me, me, me all the time, that gets boring quickly, right? So striking that balance between things that are about yourself, things that are about community, promoting a product that you're trying to sell, or giving shout outs to your peers, that's right. Right, that's a nice kind of menu of things that you can talk about.
Cyndie:That's right and that pulling in other people part is again really, really important, because, inadvertently, what happens is that folks want to reshare that and that is only going to help you. So, from a very tactical perspective, do you need to have a platform? I think ideally, but if you don't, absolutely start now, start to build that. And a platform doesn't mean 100,000 people. A platform might mean five people. Maybe that means that you're starting to write a blog that you're posting on Substack, but you do want to start doing that now. If you don't have a newsletter, start to build a newsletter. Again, it doesn't mean you're going to start with the largest number, but you'll get there slowly. But start now, before your book is out in the world. Decide what your PR campaign is, work with your publisher on that campaign right, and do that early enough that you have clarity around it so you know where you need help and you have to fill in.
Henry:Let me ask you a quick question about something that I know that instills a lot of dread in writers, but they feel like it's an obligation, and I think one of the tricky things about this topic is that it's changing all the time. I mean, the ways you marketed and promoted a book when my first book came out are just wildly different than what people are doing today. What do you think about events and when I say events I don't mean like attending conferences or comic cons or things like that, I mean bookstore events, individual events, where you are the main attraction. Is that something that you try to do? Do you find that those are effective ways of promoting and selling your books?
Cyndie:Do you mean specifically a book tour?
Henry:A book tour. It could be events, you know, just events at bookstores, libraries, doing it on your own. So it's one thing if your publisher organizes all of that for you. But I'm talking about? Should an author take the initiative and put their time and resources into trying to for example, driving around and visiting every local indie within 100 miles, you know, or whatever it is, and introducing themselves and trying to get a schedule events? Do you think that that's a good use of one's time?
Cyndie:I don't.
Cyndie:I think you know and this is what I did with Microjoys I said important for authors to understand and writers to understand you do this out of your own time and your own money. What I decided very early on is I would do the three surrounding states, that's it right, and I would only do one that was local. So Wachung Booksellers was the local bookstore right, it is the local bookstore. But I was very strategic about how I would spend my time and effort and for me it would not have made sense to drive around introducing myself to booksellers, that's not to say again, like when our book comes out, that's not the end of this, right. Whenever I am somewhere where there is a small bookstore, I go in and I say hello, right, because this is in perpetuity. So, leading up to your book, you're going to have so many different things to do. I don't know that the best way to spend your time is to go around and attempt to do events at every bookstore that's available, and I don't think that bookstores want you to do that either.
Henry:Yeah, my take on this has sort of changed over time and I would agree with you. So my overall take is that I agree. I think individual events are great if you can rally a crowd, and it's going to be on you to rally that crowd. So the bookseller or the library, they will make announcements of things and they'll do their best to support you. They're also running a retail operation. They have lots of events right. They're not going to be out beating the bushes trying to get people to come to your event. And so if you feel confident that you can draw a crowd, by all means schedule that event. If you don't feel confident that you can draw a crowd in this particular region or city or whatever it is, there might be better ways to spend your time.
Henry:You know I've had events where there have been over 100 people or even hundreds of people at an event. I also had a mortifying experience in a Seattle Barnes and Noble when I walked in and there was a giant poster of me and I was like I am the man.
Marni:You have arrived. I have arrived.
Henry:I am a big deal. Big deal and I went upstairs and they must have had like 200 folding chairs set up and I think there were maybe four people that came to this event.
Henry:This happens and you just said and this is actually an important point when it comes to marketing, promoting your book that I do want to make, which is it was mortifying. I just wanted to die right and just vanish from the earth, but what I did was okay, I'm here, they're here, and these nice people are here, and you know, I think these people actually they weren't even there for my event. I think they were so mortified on my behalf that they showed up and they sat down in these seats and looked at me with sheer pity in their eyes. We sat down and we drew and we talked about books that we enjoyed. I didn't try to really talk about my series or stick to some sort of a script. I just connected with those people. We sat, and here's the other big thing you are going to have things that don't work out the way you want them to.
Henry:You're going to get a negative review. You're going to have an event where people don't show up. You're going to have all. You're going to have things where you have done everything right and it still doesn't turn out the way you wanted to, but you cannot allow that to defeat you.
Marni:No.
Henry:Dust yourself off and keep going. And here's the big one Always be nice, right when you can. Well, when you can. But I mean like it wasn't, it wasn't the bookseller's fault that nobody came to that event right. And I have heard horror stories about authors berating and yelling at bookstore employees or yelling at publicists and being generally awful human beings to them because things didn't work out the way they wanted. But the reality is that we all want the same thing. That's right.
Henry:To sell books. To sell books, the bookseller wants people in those seats, right. The publicist wants you to be on the Today Show, or you know. Whatever it is right. You all want the same thing and you can do everything, right. But you know there's a weird alchemy to bookselling. So the longer I've been in this business, the more I've come to the realization of I'm going to control what I can control. I'm going to understand that there are things that are outside of my control and in the meantime, I'm also going to be writing my next book, that's right.
Cyndie:That's right and we talked about that. I was very impressed by that idea because I felt like I needed to take a break after mine came out. So the fact that you're writing your next book is pretty impressive. That sort of dreaded one or two star review that every author is going to get. They're going to happen, right, they're going to happen. There's nothing that you or I can do to prevent it. So the idea it's like we've just got to let it go and, though this isn't directly tied to promotion, I think it can ding our sense of self. So we want to be mindful of this. When we are in the middle of promoting our book, Do everything you can within reason to not read those reviews, those first reviews that come in. We want to go read them and I tell you they will have you sitting in a corner somewhere and wishing you never wrote this book. So, as best you can, don't read those reviews, particularly when you are in an active mode of needing to promote the book.
Henry:Good advice. I think a lot of authors have a hard time with that, myself included. Here's the way I sort of approach that Whenever I get a bad review and it does happen, and generally my books have been quite well reviewed. But you know, I think that just human nature is you could get a thousand great reviews and you get one bad review and you're going to fixate on that one.
Henry:Or negativity bias, Whenever if I get a really bad review of one of my books, I ask sort of two questions. One is was it just not their thing? It's just not their thing, right, I made a pizza and they don't like pizza, right, and do they have any legitimate criticisms? But then the other thing that I do to make myself feel better is I go and look at terrible reviews of books that I love of books that I just think are masterpieces.
Henry:And you know. The reality is that not everybody's going to love your book and you cannot allow that to knock you off your stride. Sometimes criticism is valid and we want to incorporate it, but to your point. You don't want some early review or some negative review to bum you out so much that you no longer want to market and promote your book that you feel almost apologetic about putting this thing out in the world.
Cyndie:Yeah, and I don't want to spend too much time on this, but I do want to just acknowledge you know when you were in the middle of promoting your book, you don't need anybody's criticism. It's not going to help you. The book's already out in the world. So if you want to do that after your book comes out, sure be open to that criticism, but not before your book has even had a chance, Because you doing that is only going to send you reeling. You can't change it. The book is coming as is, so that criticism is not going to help you in this moment.
Cyndie:So I think it's a matter of timing and when, if you choose to read those reviews, when you choose to do them.
Henry:And, by the way, here's the reality. So you can't control the reviews, but here's some facts about you. When you're out there promoting a book, you wrote a book, that's it. You had an idea. I mean, I cannot tell you how many emails I've gotten from people who were like hey, I'm thinking about writing a book, please introduce me to your agent and publisher. And sometimes I have to bite my tongue when I get those emails and I just say you know, that is fantastic that you have thought about writing a book. Please contact me when you have a manuscript and we can talk more. And the reality is is that only 10% of those people are ever going to sit down and start writing that book and only 5% of those people are ever going to even get close to finishing it.
Cyndie:Yeah.
Henry:Right. So to have written a book and to put it out in the world, just take a bow, it doesn't matter what the review. You have undergone this. You've taken on this huge challenge and put it out there, and sometimes myself included you have to stop and remind yourself of that. That's a big achievement and you want to celebrate that and keep that celebration front and center in your mind 100%.
Cyndie:So let me ask you this, as you have, the Witchstone is coming out in just a few months. Are you going to do a book tour?
Henry:I'm going to do selective events, so I might do some things in Chicago, which is where I'm originally from, and I can rally a crowd in.
Henry:Chicago. I lived in California for 10 years in San Francisco, in the Bay Area, so I might do some events out there because, again, I'm confident that I can rally a crowd in those places. We're going to do an event here in Montclair at Wachung Booksellers on June 19th and you and I are going to be in conversation at that event, which I'm really excited for. And I'm also going to do something here at the Montclair Library because I'm involved with the library. I'm on the board of the Public Library Foundation, so I'm trying to be selective about that.
Henry:Where I'm really putting a lot of my energy is in trying to drum up pre-orders. I think that is a very important and good thing and sort of an actionable thing that an author can do. So I am doing these prints that I mentioned. I've been creating some animated assets that I can use, because that's something I happen to like to do. I also to your point about newsletters. I do have a mailing list of people that have signed up to hear from me. That is probably three,000 people. It's not huge, but it's not nothing.
Kathryn:That's great, but it's not nothing.
Henry:And that is an underleveraged asset, and so I want to be sending out a newsletter, probably every three weeks or so. Between now and launch and what I want to do. There's a woman named Jane Friedman who is a writer who publishes a lot of free resources. She's a publishing professional. I have found that her newsletter I really read when it arrives, because there's always something that is a real benefit to me, and so I want to think about that when I send out my newsletter, so that when people get them from me, it's not just okay. Here's my obligatory thing.
Henry:There's something in here you want to see because it's going to be neat or interesting or new or unexpected or whatever it is. So I want to give some thought to that. So lots of activity, but I'm also not letting it consume me.
Cyndie:Yeah.
Henry:I could run myself ragged trying, you know, between now and June and then after June trying to promote this book. Maybe I'll move the needle a little bit, but I also need to be writing my next book as well. And so I look at all of this stuff as a learning opportunity. I try to have fun with it.
Henry:But, if you were to have one sort of piece of advice, right? So as we sort of try to sum up and think about okay, there's some things we can do pre-launch, there's some things we can do post-launch. There's a gazillion social media things out there, we want to be selective about what we do. We don't want to bankrupt ourselves in the process, all that kind of stuff. What would your one piece of advice to a new or even an experienced author trying to promote and market their book? What would you suggest to them?
Cyndie:Well, the first thing I'd want them to know before I make any suggestions is that promotion doesn't equal sales, and sales don't equate to the kind of person you are. You are not a bad person if your books don't sell.
Cyndie:There's no correlation to that. You can only reach who you can reach. There's a statistic that I read that says only about 7% of books will reach 10,000 copies sold in their first year. Less than 33% of books will sell, I think, 1,000 copies in their first year. So I think we see things like New York Times bestseller and we hear all of these things thrown around very casually. It's very, very rare. So do not allow your promotion to don't assume that that's going to equate to your sales and don't allow your sales to shift who you think you are or how talented you are, Because those things there's not a direct correlation to how many people buy your book and how talented you are.
Cyndie:With that said, if there were one thing that I think every author needs to be doing before their book comes out, is really utilizing your resources to tap into your community. That spreadsheet call it a one pager. Who are the people that you know that can support you, because you alone cannot sell your book. You really need the support of others and please don't make that be about the numbers. I have 10,000 people who can support me. The list that I put together was about 22 people. Right, 22 people. That's who I had on that list of these are the folks with influence that I know can help me. And then you start to build that circle out. But be mindful, as soon as you can, to start building a community and rallying people behind your message, whatever the message of your book is. How about you? What might you say?
Henry:I think all that makes a ton of sense. My big thing is playing the long game, right. So today maybe you can do two things. When you have a book coming out and you're starting to build that community, that's right, right. But you're also working on that next book, and when the next book comes out, maybe there are going to be three things that you can do. And your community is a little bit bigger and these things really do snowball. And so if you are interested in making a life as a working writer, you do have to play the long game.
Henry:It is a tough profession. There is a greater and greater burden put on us all the time to be doing stuff to market and promote our books, and that can seem overwhelming. But I think by breaking things into manageable tasks, making those tasks things that we authentically enjoy and never losing perspective always keeping that long game in mind. That's going to be the way to sort of build stuff over time, and I think that's the way you really build a career.
Cyndie:That's exactly it. And remember, publishers are going to want you to put in all of this effort up front, right, because they want you to be on all of these special lists, but your book is out in the world for in perpetuity. So that long game is really important to remember. You don't need to do, yes, do everything you can upfront to get pre-orders, but also that has to continue. So make sure that you are preserving your sense of self in the meantime, because this is the long game. Right, microjoys came out a year ago. I'm going to be talking about it forever. So do what you can while you can, but don't place all of your eggs into one basket before your book comes out. Know that this is something you're going to have to continue. I might want to shift gears for a second. Can we talk about our favorite books?
Henry:Sure, I would love to. I'm always into that.
Cyndie:I don't know. This is the place to talk about it. Do you have favorite books as an author of fantasy novels?
Henry:I absolutely do, although when people ask me what my favorite book is, I don't have a favorite Sure, so I have favorite books for different moods. So I will read, for example, the Wind in the Willows Until I Die, right, that is to me such a beautiful children's story, but also very, very funny, poignant in its way. I love the Aubrey Maturin books by Patrick O'Brien, which are these wonderful historical fiction books set during the Napoleonic Wars. I love historical fiction. I love fantasy. I'm a huge Tolkien geek and a fan of the Lord of the Rings. I may or may not have been so excited to watch the Dune adaptation movies that just came out.
Marni:You and I were both.
Henry:I'm turning my kids into fellow geeks as well.
Kathryn:So I have tons.
Henry:One book, one series of books that I've read recently, in the last couple of years, that I find myself coming back to again and again, that I just think are extraordinary, are the Wolf Hall books by Hilary Mantel, who sadly passed, I believe, last year. Those are historical fiction and they follow Thomas Cromwell, who was sort of the mover and shaker in the court of Henry VIII, and they're just extraordinary books. I mean, they're history, but they're so wonderfully done and I just find them captivating. How about?
Cyndie:you. I love hearing what book people are reading and listening to. Well, I have to say, this is the difference between you and I. You, of course, had those off the top of your head. I have a list, just in case the question came up. So I read a lot of different kinds of books, right On spirit. In particular, one of my favorite books is when Things Fall Apart by Pema Chodron. The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron, the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali. It's a book about yoga, and there's another book that I keep on my bedside and it's called Sabbath Finding Rest, renewal and Delight in Our Busy Lives. And those four books to me, particularly when it comes to tapping into self, have really become my giants. There are other books that I have on culture Young, gifted and Black is a beautiful one. One Drop is a beautiful book. One of my favorites of all times is the Color of Water by James McBride. Are you familiar with that book?
Henry:No, but I love the title oh my goodness, you have to.
Cyndie:So it's the Color of Water, a black man's tribute to his white mother, by James McBride which, for anyone who can't see me, I am also biracial black. And then, just for fun, there is a book it's an old book, that was. It's just a beautiful book. It's called Writing and it's a kid's book, and it's by Mary McCain, chinatown Pretty. And then, finally, this book I found in a thrift store recently, but it happens to be on my table in the living room, and it's called Handjob. Let me finish. Let me finish a catalog of type by Michael Perry. So it's just a beautiful book, and that's the other thing about a lot of the books that I have in my space is it's really about how the books make me feel, just by looking at them. I don't like books that are not attractive.
Henry:Awesome list and this is great for me, because these are. These are books that I wouldn't normally be inclined to seek out, but I'm excited to check out some of those and, speaking of the way we make me feel, I always love talking with you and seeing you and tapping into your expertise, but also your friendship, and so thank you so much for talking with me about marketing and promoting books, and I am so excited to talk with you again in.
Henry:Well, we'll see each other before then, but on June 19th at Watchung Booksellers, if anybody wants to come out and talk about the Witchstone and have some fun and maybe raise a glass of champagne, you and I will be at Wachung Booksellers on June 19th at 7 pm.
Cyndie:7 pm Not if they will come out. We want you to come out. This is a huge launch and I'm so excited for you and I'm thrilled to have been in this conversation with you.
Henry:Thank, you so?
Cyndie:much my pleasure. Thank you, I'm glad we were able to talk about this.
Kathryn:Thank you, henry and Cyndie, for this chat with us today. We just love your positive energy and great ideas and, of course, your support of Watch ung Booksellers and indie bookstores everywhere.
Marni:We've got a great lineup of events coming this summer you won't want to miss. June 11th, the Moncler Lit Fest is hosting Eric Larson to talk about his new book the Demon of Unrest a saga of hubris, heartbreak and heroism at the dawn of the Civil War. June 13th, we host Daisy Garrison for her debut YA novel.
Kathryn:Six More Months of June and on June 18th Ananda Lima shares her new book of short stories, craft Stories. I Wrote for the Devil. And don't miss our guest Henry Neff's launch of the Witchstone on June 19th. Make sure you register early. Seats are limited. And also, don't forget later in the summer. We've got Julia Phillips, daniel Silva and Joyce Maynard. For information and tickets, visit our website or check out our show notes. You can also sign up for our newsletter and we promise to just send one a week to keep you posted. Recording and editing at Silverstream Studio in Montclair, new Jersey. Special thanks to Timmy Kelleney, brie Testa and Derek Mathias. Original music is composed and performed by Violet Mujica, art and design by Evelyn Moulton and research and show notes by Carolyn Shurtleff. Thanks to all the staff at Watch ung Booksellers and the Kids Room for their hard work and love of books.
Marni:And thank you for listening. If you enjoy the podcast, please like, follow and share it. You can follow us on social media at Watch ung Booksellers and if you have any questions, you can reach out to WB Podcast@ watchungbooksellers. com.
Kathryn:We'll see you next week. Until then, for the love of books, keep reading.
